Comitti Westminster wall clock X 2

[Dell]

I have two Comitti Westminster wall clocks ( well one is my one & the other is my sons ) my one is an Oxford but my sons is a cheaper one.

anyway my sons had the chime side running slow  so I have stripped it to see what if anything was worn but can’t see any significant wear but ( not my usual sort of clock as I only restore torsion clocks ), can’t find much if any wear but quite dirty even dark deposits in the pinions , I also see bushes but not sure if added or from new to high wear places as they are a copper bronze colour ( see circled picture ), so to my question would the need of a service be enough to make the chime very sluggish or should I look at other possibilities, the strike side is fine so is the running , I hadn’t realised that an expensive clock like a Comitti of London would have a Hermle movement in them , the one I am doing has a 341-021 movement not sure what my Oxford has but when I looked at the Comitti Oxford online it said a Hermle movement and the price was £2350 do people still pay that sort of money? I paid £230 for my one.

Thanks Dell

 

[oldhippy]

Hi Dell, I don't want to burst your bubble but these movements are horrid, made of soft brass? and steel? hardly any sinkholes for oil, springs are too powerful for the movement so wear is very common. From what I can see of the plate not only the hole that you marked but the center one is the same, looks like part of the manufacturer process just looking at it from the other side will tell you if it has been re-bushed. As the whole thing is soft check all pivots and holes for wear, take all the springs out of there barrels and clean. These movements wear out in about 20 years, yes they are pricey.    

[Dell]

Thanks for replying it doesn’t look to me as though the plates have been rebushed by anyone but the manufacturer but then I am no expert, all the pivots look good to me but I have read that the pivots were plated until mid 90’s when they used SS but they don’t look SS to me , there are about 6 bushed holes on each plate and they look to be in the places of high wear but none look to be worn so I am going to remove mainsprings clean and lubricate ( but what to lubricate mainspring with ? ) I use Mobil 1 on torsion clock mainsprings clean everything else & reassemble , also what oil to use on pivots as I only use watch oil on the torsion clocks.

Dell

[oldhippy]

I used to use Windles clock oil. You can use that for the springs and pivots. 

[Dell]

Removed the mainsprings the chime mainspring ( largest ) had oil lubrication the other two had grease so possibly someone had the barrel out previously.

[MikeEll]

I like working on Hermle movements; I service them all the time.  I've serviced and sold many Hermle-equipped clocks that are 40 to 50 years old, still going strong with minimal wear.  They may not be top-end quality, but they are reliable and have parts readily available.  It's a double-edged sword, though, in that they keep going for years, even when they need a service.  Consequently, owners don't bother having them serviced, and they end up wearing out.

I have a Comitti grandfather clock that also uses a Hermle movement.  The new price is up towards £10,000, which I think is insane.  The movement is about £400 brand new, and there's never £9500 worth of case.  There's probably £9000 of profit after making the clock.

Does the bush fitment hole have a hexagon shape on the bushed pivot hole you've circled?  I've seen several that do on the same pivot hole.  It makes me wonder if it's a factory retrofit to address a common wear problem with that pivot.

In my experience of these, the sluggish chime is just down to basics.  Ensure it's clean, has good lubrication, good mainspring, etc. Also, don't forget to strip and lubricate the hammer assembly, as it can get pretty gummed up.  If the mainspring is set, pop a new one in.  All parts are readily available from Cousins.  One alternative explanation is that if the chime mechanism hasn't been set up correctly, it partially lifts the hammers at the end of the cycle, which doesn't allow the chime to gather enough momentum to get going properly.

If you need a hand give me a shout.

Edited March 17 by MikeEll

[Dell]

Thanks for your reply Mike

The bush is round on both sides but it doesn’t look like it’s been bushed by a clockmaker but I was told that Hermle make two of each movement, a standard one and one with bronze bushes in high wear areas how true it is I don’t know but seems odd that they would do that, anyway the 2 bushes on the front plate 1 for stop work arbor & 1 for chime cam had very slight wear but I wouldn’t have said enough to cause the problem but I have made some bushes and done them although not back together yet so we will see , I hadn’t thought about the hammer assembly will look at that but had already checked hammer lift before taking apart.

Dell

[MikeEll]

its hard to tell from your picture if its factory fitted or a repair, but they did start selling them with bronze bushes fitted.  I dont suppose it matters so long as the bush is good.  Here's a picture of a new Hermle movement with pre-fitted bronze bushes

[Dell]

Well I have made and fitted front and back bush for stop work arbor, front bushing on chime arbor , removed, cleaned & lubricated mainspring put chime train together but still slow, each mobile on it’s own feels & spins fine, I then put mobiles in in pairs feels smooth, then three mobiles same then all without barrel again fine so all that’s left is barrel & mainspring there is a bit of play barrel to arbor but again not much, so as cost is minimal I have ordered a barrel complete with mainspring so we will see.
Dell

 

[MikeEll]

Do you have good end-play on all the train wheels?  

If everything is smooth and turning freely, it sounds like a tired spring.

[Dell]

8 hours ago, MikeEll said:

Do you have good end-play on all the train wheels?  

If everything is smooth and turning freely, it sounds like a tired spring.

Yes good end shake but while I was waiting for the new barrel to turn up I had another close look & decided to fit a bush in the back plate for the chime drive arbor & Sod’s Law the chime train seems to run lovely now with original barrel we live & learn ( hopefully ) also decided to bush the gathering pallet arbor on strike side front & back as there seemed to be similar play there as well because the clock belonges to my handicapped son & he gets very agitated when things go wrong, will put it back together tomorrow fingers crossed we will be good to go.

Thanks Dell

[MikeEll]

Excellent, could you share a pic of which hole you bushed for the chime drive arbour, please Dell?

[Dell]

On 3/21/2025 at 9:15 AM, MikeEll said:

Excellent, could you share a pic of which hole you bushed for the chime drive arbour, please Dell?

[Dell]

Finally got the chance to put the Hermle back together but it chimes very slow , have checked depthing all good tried new barrel & mainspring still the same , no bent pivots, arbors or teeth , I even tried another set of wheels as I have a spare movement, in desperation I ordered a new front & backplate from cousins but no better, does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks in advance Dell

[MikeEll]

Dell,  I suggest stripping it down to the bare plates and wheel trains, remove the barrels, then check the action of the wheel trains by feel.  Everything should feel light to the touch and move freely (I know you know this, just thinking out loud  )

I’m still suspicious of the hammer assembly.  Has that been stripped, cleaned and lubricated?

Mike

Edited April 9 by MikeEll

[Dell]

15 minutes ago, MikeEll said:

Dell,  I suggest stripping it down to the bare plates and wheel trains, remove the barrels, then check the action of the wheel trains by feel.  Everything should feel light to the touch and move freely.

I’m still suspicious of the hammer assembly.  Has that been stripped, cleaned and lubricated?

Mike

Thanks for replying Mike

yes I have stripped, cleaned, greased & rebuilt the hammer assembly they seem to lift & drop very easy.

I have already done as you suggested but will do it again, that is something I do with torsion clocks but using a new front & backplates the bushings should be correct & even trying another set of wheels & arbors I am stumped, I don’t want to have to buy a new replacement movement I have done a few other two & three train clocks without problems & I know it’s not my usual sort of clock but torsion clocks are if anything more important to be as friction free as possible but I will recheck all the mobiles running with each other.

Dell

[MikeEll]

Yeah, it’s strange this one.  I was thinking the same about torsion clicks where it’s more critical. I’d be happy to give it a second pair of eyes if you want to mail it to me.  I do quite a few Hermles, although you’ve already tried most of what I would do.  

Edited April 9 by MikeEll

[oldhippy]

How many turns of the key before it will work? What do you call slow. Will it chime for a week?

[Dell]

OH six clicks after slack is taken up it starts but slowly It took 35 seconds to chime the first 1/4 so very slow , thanks for the offer Mike & I may take you up on that although I hate to be beaten that’s why I do torsion clocks because they can be very frustrating at times that’s why I end up doing them for other clockmakers, I will keep your offer in mind.

Dell

[MikeEll]

7 minutes ago, Dell said:

OH six clicks after slack is taken up it starts but slowly It took 35 seconds to chime the first 1/4 so very slow , thanks for the offer Mike & I may take you up on that although I hate to be beaten that’s why I do torsion clocks because they can be very frustrating at times that’s why I end up doing them for other clockmakers, I will keep your offer in mind.

Dell

Ha ha, yes, I may need your help on a torsion clock in the future

[oldhippy]

That is not right. Sounds to me the spring is at fault it needs replacing it is either tired or out of shape or both. 

[MikeEll]

14 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

That is not right. Sounds to me the spring is at fault it needs replacing it is either tired or out of shape or both. 

Apparently it does the same with a new barrel and spring.  It’s possible that the stock spring isn’t powerful enough.  Might be worth using a mainspring formula to select a suitable spring for the barrel size.

Edited April 9 by MikeEll

[Dell]

1 hour ago, oldhippy said:

That is not right. Sounds to me the spring is at fault it needs replacing it is either tired or out of shape or both. 

I tried a new barrel and mainspring although I didn’t remove mainspring from new barrel, clean lubricate & refit.

Frustrated Dell

[oldhippy]

Always clean the new spring and oil it.