Winding post tightening screw won't tighten

[Vadadagon]

Hello,

I did a search on this topic and couldn't find one which matched and therefore started this one.  If this is covered somewhere else please let me know. 

Iam extremely new to watch repair (and by that I mean all I've done so far is remove the back and replace rubber gaskets and clean the exterior).  

So I tried to remove the movement from a case.  I tried removing the winding post and so I unscrewed the tightening screw.  Everything went well (or so I thought), except when I inserted the winding post and tried to tighten that tiny screw the screw would not tighten.  It's just free turning now and it doesn't secure the winding post and crown to the watch. 

I've read that I probably need to take the watch apart and clean it.  I am not even sure how to go about that, but my question is because that little screw doesn't come off (or unscrew) and it doesn't tighten either.  I feel like I broke something.  Is there a way for me to replace that screw and/or am I insane?

I am adding photos and pointing to the screw I mean and hopefully the photos help.  Also, the screw doesn't seem to come out (do I need to take this whole movement apart)?

Sincerely,

Eddy 

[tomh207]

That is the setting lever screw, it is captive between the barrel bridge and the main plate of the watch. It screws into the setting lever to hold it in place and you would partially unscrew it to release the stem from the watch. Unfortunately it seems you unscrewed it completely, this will necessitate removing the hands and dial to access and hold the setting lever so you can secure it again with the screw. It’s not a big job nor difficult but as you’re dealing with hands and dial easy to damage as they are rather fragile.

 

Tom

[Vadadagon]

Hello,

Thank you Tom.  That's a relief.  I will try that and report back to see what the results.  

[mikepilk]

With setting lever screws, usually about 2 turns is enough to remove the stem (and pushing on the screw a little whilst pulling the stem can help). Any more than about 3 and you risk the setting lever falling off 

I was wondering what the movement is and noticed the design of the clip to attach the winding weight, which suggests Felsa. I had a Felsa 4000N which looks just like your movement. 

This is the back of the movement with the setting lever screw arrowed. The thing it's screwed in to is the setting lever, which has fallen off.

The auto mechanism is a little unusual on these, and maybe a little fiddly for an absolute beginner.

Edited March 17 by mikepilk

[Vadadagon]

Mikepilk - I tried finding what type of movement it is and I don't know.  Thank you for the information.  I'll look up a Felsa and see if that matches what I can see on the watch. 

I do have a separate movement a Caravelle Model 1453.50 or Bulova Model 1453.10 model with a push pin instead of a screw.  It only winds for a little bit and then it seems to get lose and then it just free spins.  I don't know if you would know what the issue is. 

So I was able to take it apart and put it back together.  I found the schematics to it (see attached).  
However, for some reason even though (as far as I can tell) it is put together correctly it only winds the watch for a little bit and then it stops (as if it releases) and the crown just free spins. 

Attached is the schematics I have and images of the Stem, Sliding Pinion (clutch), winding pinion, set lever w/axle, setting wheel, and Clutch lever/spring seem to all be set correctly.  However, the sliding pinion seems to only turn the setting wheel for a short period and then it seems to move away and I don't know why.  I've  put it together and taken it apart at least 4 times with the same solution. 

If I need to upload a video let me know. 

Bulova-1453.10-and-1453.50.pdf

[rjenkinsgb]

You look to have the yoke out of place somehow. 

When the winding stem is pushed in, the yoke should be outwards (to the right) to hold the sliding clutch against the clutch wheel ratchet teeth, and snap the opposite way when the stem is pulled out.

It's difficult to tell from the photos, but possibly the spring "tail" on the yoke is out of position? It should be holding the sliding clutch against the clutch wheel by its spring pressure unless the stem is pulled?

 

[mikepilk]

53 minutes ago, Vadadagon said:

I'll look up a Felsa and see if that matches what I can see on the watch. 

It is a Felsa, the number should but stamped on the outer edge of the mainplate under the balance.

[Vadadagon]

15 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

You look to have the yoke out of place somehow. 

When the winding stem is pushed in, the yoke should be outwards (to the right) to hold the sliding clutch against the clutch wheel ratchet teeth, and snap the opposite way when the stem is pulled out.

It's difficult to tell from the photos, but possibly the spring "tail" on the yoke is out of position? It should be holding the sliding clutch against the clutch wheel by its spring pressure unless the stem is pulled?

If only I knew which one the yoke is. Sorry very, very, very new to this and all I know of the keyless works is basically what is listed in the schematics. 

Is the yoke number 24/26 listed in the schematics as Clutch Lever/Spring or number 670 listed as Dbl Cor Oper Lever sitting belo?
 
I was thinking last night that perhaps the "Set Bridge (jumper)" listed as number 28 which goes on top (and gets screwed in) may be playing a role in keeping the sliding clutch against the wheel, but honestly I don't know enough about the mechanics of this watch and I haven't seen any videos of this exact keyless works to know. 

 

[Vadadagon]

15 hours ago, mikepilk said:

It is a Felsa, the number should but stamped on the outer edge of the mainplate under the balance.

Mikepilk - I'll look and see.  I know originally was able to see some numbers listed as 8200 but no names anywhere.  I'll post an image when I get a chance.  When searching on 8200 all I came up with was Citizen 8200 but I haven't had a chance to compare it yet. 
 

 

[AndyGSi]

Difficult to see from the photos but is there a boss missing from here which should hold the spring away from the winding pinion?

[Vadadagon]

41 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

AndyGSi - The boss is there.  Sorry my photos are as best as I can get them on my phone.  That hole you see there is the boss. 
The only thing I can think of is that the spring is supposed to go the other way but when I've put it that way it doesn't even seem to reach the clutch. 

I know the clutch is supposed to be held against the wheel.  I just can't see how based on the schematics and the parts I have from this watch.  Maybe the spring got bent and why this is happening?

 

 

Difficult to see from the photos but is there a boss missing from here which should hold the spring away from the winding pinion?

 

 

 

[AndyGSi]

This is what it should look like so doesn't look that deformed

From the literature it should be no where near the boss/hole but appears to go across the edge of the boss as if it's not sat low enough.

Is this a raised pip that the spring should sit the other side of?

Edit

This alsl look different but could just be the position of the stem?

 

Edited March 26 by AndyGSi

[Vadadagon]

AndyGSi - Yes once I positioned the top leg of that spring on the outside of the post it positioned the clutch so that I could wind the watch. 

However, no matter what I do it won't engage the wheel to move the hands.  I put it back together and it does wind, but again even though it clicks to the 2nd position to set the hands nothing happens.  That's because the clutch doesn't reach that little cog wheel. 

Here is a better photo (I hope).  I understand better how it is supposed to work.  I am just not sure how these parts and the parts on top supposed to sit to make it all happen. 
I'll have to watch more videos on YouTube. 

[rjenkinsgb]

8 hours ago, Vadadagon said:

If only I knew which one the yoke is.

The yoke is the bar that runs in the groove of the sliding clutch to move that around.

Most types have a separate spring, but yours has the long "tail" acting as a spring. That tail should somehow be set to hold the sliding clutch against  the clutch wheel ratchet.

It looks like you have got it in the OK in the last photo - that shows a boss it hooks on to, that I could not see in the original photos. 

Re. the time setting, can you show the keyless works with the stem in the setting position?

 

[AndyGSi]

I presume you're fitting the set bridge on top before tryi9ng to set the hands?