Oris 581 KIF 7 jewel pin pallet help!

[Bill2024]

Hi All,

So I got the ORIS 581 KIF for £cheap because the case looked OK and I thought it would e good to practice on. It was sold as a non-runner and verily it did not run. Hands would set but pretty stiffly. It turns out to be a pin pallet escapement which is not something I've come across before.

So I did everything I know how to do to it:

• disassembled
• pre-cleaned by hand
• pegged what jewels there are
• washed/rinsed(x3)/dried using hand-crank machine.
• reassembled
• lubricated (based on the basic knowledge I have acquired so far) as I couldn't find a chart for this one. This involved 9010 on escape wheel, fourth wheel, balance jewels, 1300 on third wheel, centre wheel, barrel, grease on the keyless works and 9415 on three of the escape wheel teeth. I also took the mainspring out and cleaned it and wiped it with 8200. I suspect all of this was much clumsier than it should have been but I gave it my best shot!

When I put it back together I was very pleased to see that it actually runs but in truth this seems to be where the questions start.

1) I seem to have huge variations in timekeeping in the different positions, particularly between the dial positions and the crown positions, but generally it is all pretty bad. I have included timegrapher readings.

2) I noticed that the timegrapher trace appears pretty clean but that it is slightly wavy in all positions. I have included a graphic from the dial down position. The rate does not settle on a value but will vary by 10s (sometimes more) as the graph moves across the display. I estimated that the wave looks to take around 30s before returning roughly to where it was before. Does this point to an issue with the fourth wheel perhaps on its 60s rotation?
BTW - I couldn't find out the lift angle for this movement and I haven't tried to work it out myself yet, which is probably why he amplitude appears high.

3) I'm not sure what to expect of this movement in combination with my current skill level, but intuitively it feels like I should be able to improve on this. I haven't tried to regulate it yet as there seems to be no point until the rates across positions are more equal. I'm not sure how to go about equalising the positional rates though so any tips much appreciated.

Thanks, Bill

 

Edited March 18 by Bill2024

[Nucejoe]

Lift angles listed here.

https://watchmakingtools.com/watchmaking-resources/watch-movement-lift-angles/

 How did you clean jewels in balance settings?

Reduce end shake on balance to lowest, to reduce delta.

Good luck

Edited March 19 by Nucejoe

[Bill2024]

12 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

Lift angles listed here.

https://watchmakingtools.com/watchmaking-resources/watch-movement-lift-angles/

 How did you clean jewels in balance settings?

Reduce end shake on balance to lowest, to reduce delta.

Good luck

Thanks. I couldn't see the Oris 581 movement lift angle in this chart and not in any of the others I have come across either for some reason. So I had a go at working it out myself, and it was coming to around 42 degrees; so I'll use that from now on when looking at amplitude.

I cleaned the balance jewels by removing them and soaking in Essence of Renata (Heptane) for a few minutes. Then I wiped the flat surface of the cap jewel on watchmakers paper with a drop of solvent. After cleaning it appeared clean and reflective. I did my best but I'm not sure I evenly oiled the balance jewels - I was excited to put it all back together to see if it ran at all - but probably should have done the oiling again. I may revisit the oiling of the balance and see if that makes a difference.

The balance itself was also cleaned in Essence of Renata for a few minutes with the jewels removed. It did not go in the wash/rinse though.

I'm not sure how to go about lowering the endshake on the balance pivots if it was required. Is this a job for a staking set or similar (which unfortunately I don't have) to push the jewels by a v small amount?

Edited March 19 by Bill2024

[Nucejoe]

6 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

Thanks. I couldn't see the Oris 581 movement lift angle in this chart and not in any of the others I have come across either for some reason. 

 Oris 581, 582, 583, 586 and 587 are members of a family. One is a base caliber , variants to the base caliber differ when  a complication is added perhaps date in this case, or modifications is made such as the shock system,  ....etc. 

All members fo a family beat the  same,  have same lift angle, power train,   etc.  So whenever you can't find the exact caliber anywhere , go on to databases like Dr ranfft , mizeni, ....etc to see the entire family and  there entire tech specification. 

To lower end shake you can move the housing to balance settings.  Staking set is nice to have, yet you can  move the housing  without a staking set. I do. Or hou can shim the cock.

I say your cleaning will do. You can add pegging to cleaning process.

Old pin pallets may refuse to run without oil, if nothing else, make sure pins are oiled .

Good luck Pal.

 

Edited March 19 by Nucejoe

[Nucejoe]

On 3/14/2025 at 3:30 AM, Nucejoe said:

You can also shim the balance cock instead of moving its setting.

HOW TO SHIM

Insert a piece of thin aluminum foil between mainplate and cock on the outer premiter of mainplate. Tighten cock screw، this will tilt the cock so lowers its setting. 

 Depending on how deep you insert the aluminum foil in between cock and mainplate, you can fine adjust balance end shake.  A good end shake is one that if you tighten the  cock screw a bit, balance will get free to  oscilate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20 by Nucejoe

[Bill2024]

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

To lower end shake you can move the housing to balance settings.  Staking set is nice to have, yet you can  move the housing  without a staking set. I do. Or hou can shim the cock.

Interesting - just curious how you would lower the housing for jewels without some kind of staking set. 

I’ll experiment with shimming the balance cock, and if it makes a difference I can look into making a more permanent fix by lowering the jewels. 

23 hours ago, Nucejoe said:

 Oris 581, 582, 583, 586 and 587 are members of a family. One is a base caliber , variants to the base caliber differ when  a complication is added perhaps date in this case, or modifications is made such as the shock system,  ....etc.

That’s good to know. For whatever reason though this calibre family does not appear anywhere I have looked!  It must be a very unpopular movement  

[Jon]

On 3/18/2025 at 5:05 PM, Bill2024 said:

I'm not sure what to expect of this movement in combination with my current skill level, but intuitively it feels like I should be able to improve on this.

To be honest, getting a 7 jewel pin pallet watch movement running and keeping time within a minute or two per day is a win. These are 'dollar watches' that have loads of issues due to them not being serviced and the low jewel count. Saying that, I've had students getting BFG 866's running pretty well, but it all depends on how much wear there is in the holes that the pivots sit in. If they are ovaled, which many are because of the lack of servicing no matter how much love and attention you give to cleaning, pegging and lubrication will compensate for that. So, manage your expectations with this, I would advise.

Personally, you will gain more from working on Swiss lever escapement movements, rather than pin pallets

[Nucejoe]

3 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

Interesting - just curious how you would lower the housing for jewels without some kind of staking set. 

 Have saved scrap watch case stem tubes. Put one of the right diameter on housing, push on tube till housing  starts to move, next put a balance wheel and cock back on mainplate to assess what you have and which way ( in or out) housing needs moving to achieve the right end shake.

A good end shake is one that a slight push on the cock, stops the balance.

I do all that with one eye shut. 

There are folks who can do the same with one eye shut while  smoking cigarettes .

Regs

 

4 hours ago, Bill2024 said:

That’s good to know. For whatever reason though this calibre family does not appear anywhere I have looked!  It must be a very unpopular movement  

 To search for a family, say 581    !     add 582 , 583, 584, so on,   to your key words. A cal of the family or its base cal  might be hiding somewhere there. 

Regs

 

 

[Bill2024]

On 3/21/2025 at 3:20 AM, Nucejoe said:

Have saved scrap watch case stem tubes. Put one of the right diameter on housing, push on tube till housing  starts to move, next put a balance wheel and cock back on mainplate to assess what you have and which way ( in or out) housing needs moving to achieve the right end shake.

A good end shake is one that a slight push on the cock, stops the balance.

I do all that with one eye shut. 

There are folks who can do the same with one eye shut while  smoking cigarettes .

Love it - I’ll get some cigarettes and give it a try ️  

On 3/20/2025 at 11:23 PM, Jon said:

To be honest, getting a 7 jewel pin pallet watch movement running and keeping time within a minute or two per day is a win. These are 'dollar watches' that have loads of issues due to them not being serviced and the low jewel count. Saying that, I've had students getting BFG 866's running pretty well, but it all depends on how much wear there is in the holes that the pivots sit in. If they are ovaled, which many are because of the lack of servicing no matter how much love and attention you give to cleaning, pegging and lubrication will compensate for that. So, manage your expectations with this, I would advise.

Personally, you will gain more from working on Swiss lever escapement movements, rather than pin pallets

Thanks Jon. That sounds like good advice. I don't want to get discouraged  by the performance of this movement. I’m sure someone with more skill could get it running well but for now I’ll be happy that it wasn’t running at all and now it is.

I didn’t know it was a pin pallet when I bought it, but it was very cheap and the case and dial looked OK for the age. Maybe I can find another movement to fit the case.

It’s currently running about 30s fast in dial positions and about 100s slow in crown positions! I’ll try and get those more balanced and then try wearing it and see how the errors balance out over the course of a day and leaving it dial up overnight.

I’ll stick to the Swiss levers for now though I think! 

[Jon]

On 3/22/2025 at 8:10 AM, Bill2024 said:

It’s currently running about 30s fast in dial positions and about 100s slow in crown positions! I

That maybe the curb pin and boot gap needs closing up to bring the vertical positions more in line with the horizontal ones, but more probably the wear and friction when in vertical positions, especially  if your seeing a big drop in amplitude at the same time

 

On 3/22/2025 at 8:10 AM, Bill2024 said:

I didn’t know it was a pin pallet when I bought it, but it was very cheap and the case and dial looked OK for the age.

I've bought plenty of pin pallets in my early days because they looked good and still have loads in 'the little pots graveyard'

[Bill2024]

On 3/23/2025 at 4:44 PM, Jon said:

That maybe the curb pin and boot gap needs closing up to bring the vertical positions more in line with the horizontal ones, but more probably the wear and friction when in vertical positions, especially  if your seeing a big drop in amplitude at the same time

Are you referring to this gap between the pin and the bit on the right (boot?) with the screw slot in it. If so I did try messing with this but couldn’t see how to adjust it to alter the gap. It looks like the part on the right is just there to stop the hairspring jumping out. Turning it did t seem to alter the gap. 

On 3/23/2025 at 4:44 PM, Jon said:

I've bought plenty of pin pallets in my early days because they looked good and still have loads in 'the little pots graveyard'

It sounds like I’ve accidentally set out on a path well-trod. Still time to turn back though, so I will try and avoid the pin pallets for now!