Greiner timing machine

[Neverenoughwatches]

Hiya watch folks. Something I've wondered about buying. Is this worth using alongside the Chinese timegraphers. Specifically it do something more or better. TIA.

[AndyGSi]

I've been watching the same one but wasn't sure about replacement ribbons.

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

I've been watching the same one but wasn't sure about replacement ribbons.

The picture shows a full spool Andy, seller reckons it will last a long time.  I've just bought his Cary pin gauges for at a stupid price. I just wanted to know what more it can do than the chinese tg.

He's  selling some good working gear very cheaply. 

You going for it Andy ?

[nickelsilver]

I think the best thing going is @praezis (Frank's) software. He offers a simple pickup, or you can use one from old machines (which are handy and can be had cheap on ebay). I think he has a free version and a paid one, I have the latter and it really rocks. Will show you your heavy spot for dynamic poise too! Just PM him.

 

I do like the old paper tape machines too, as they will pick up anything... if they are functional. So far I haven't been able to stump Frank's software, including cylinder and detent escapements.

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 minutes ago, nickelsilver said:

I think the best thing going is @praezis (Frank's) software. He offers a simple pickup, or you can use one from old machines (which are handy and can be had cheap on ebay). I think he has a free version and a paid one, I have the latter and it really rocks. Will show you your heavy spot for dynamic poise too! Just PM him.

 

I do like the old paper tape machines too, as they will pick up anything... if they are functional. So far I haven't been able to stump Frank's software, including cylinder and detent escapements.

This one is fully working according to the seller 85 quid...so about 90 bucks

The same guy I've just bought two cracking sets of Cary plug gauges for not much. He has a couple of quartz timing accessories inc. the testing points and holder but not the printer for them.

[JohnR725]

no pictures so I have to use my imagination?

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Specifically it do something more or better.

it gives you a nice paper tape print out nice and permanent. It also reduces stress of working on watches as you no longer looking at numeric numbers that are going to upset you. With the added bonus of you no longer have to worry about amplitude

[oldhippy]

At some point I had two different ones. Which one are you on about? Have you got pictures? 

[praezis]

Rich,

John said it very nicely - with a tiny bit of irony.

Pro:
you have a print out (if that paper is still available) and always paper for small notes.
You might get a microphone with stand (if its crystal is not yet deaf).
And all advantages that John mentioned.

Contra:
It is a rather huge device, afaik has tubes, so you have to wait after switch-on.
Often their time base is out of order.
It will give much less info than your Weishi.
It even provides less info than PCTM free version.

Frank

Btw: few months ago I put an Elma TM on Ebay. Though it was fully functional (tested, warranted), had much accessory, had transistorized electronics, I had to be happy to find someone to pay EUR 70.
 

 

Edited March 24 by praezis

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, AndyGSi said:

replacement ribbons

one of the things you can do is to not tear off the ribbon and basically wind it back in and you can use it a couple of times. At least that's what I remember from vague memory from the one I was once using.

then we really need a picture of the machine as there is another possibility of using paper designed for the B200 machine. It depends upon how the paper roll feeds out. for those not familiar with the B200 paper when it's impacted on one side or even robbed it will produce a visible marking so you don't actually need a ribbon but the machine does have to feed it in the right direction. Because oftentimes the earlier Greiner machines the paper would feed opposite of the B200 machine and it didn't work. Plus there was also a size issue of the earlier machines used a  paper that's not as wide. Although at one time for those somebody did make B200 type paper specifically designed for those early Greiner machines which I doubt is no longer available.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

pecifically it do something more

oh almost forgot it does do something that the newfangled electronic does not it consumes energy and the vacuum tubes will get toasty warm ill keep you warm on a cold night.

7 minutes ago, praezis said:

Contra:
It is a rather huge device, afaik has tubes, so you have to wait after switch-on.
Often their time base is out of order.

it's not as big as some of the machines in the past. then the time base probably hasn't been calibrated in the last 75 years like probably most other paper tape machines basically never calibrated or even checked after the left the factory

[Neverenoughwatches]

40 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

no pictures so I have to use my imagination?

it gives you a nice paper tape print out nice and permanent. It also reduces stress of working on watches as you no longer looking at numeric numbers that are going to upset you. With the added bonus of you no longer have to worry about amplitude

Ok John thats no problem I can do some nice pictures, just for you , but only because it's you

48 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

With the added bonus of you no longer have to worry about amplitude

Thats definitely a bonus, I like that John

7 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

one of the things you can do is to not tear off the ribbon and basically wind it back in and you can use it a couple of times. At least that's what I remember from vague memory from the one I was once using.

Strange that you said that, I was thinking the same. I used to do that with my fax machine 20 years ago. I could get three runs out of it before it started to fade. Great minds think alike

I tnought they were worth more !   The seller's description below

47 minutes ago, praezis said:

You might get a microphone with stand (if its crystal is not yet deaf).

Its very loud , the guy has a video of it working

49 minutes ago, praezis said:

Btw: few months ago I put an Elma TM on Ebay. Though it was fully functional (tested, warranted), had much accessory, had transistorized electronics, I had to be happy to find someone to pay EUR 70.

Sounds like I should pass on it. I just fancied a new toy to play with, the weishi is getting a bit boring

[JohnR725]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Its very loud , the guy has a video of it working

paper tapes aren't necessarily that loud in fact the ticking of the timing machine is much nicer than the synthetic ticking of the Chinese timing machines. Although it is rather embarrassing if you're in a classroom and your watches too much amplitude of the timing machine sounds like a horse galloping then maybe it is to win the entire world knows that you have a problem. I'll skip over how I know that

 

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

trange that you said that, I was thinking the same. I used to do that with my fax machine 20 years ago. I could get three runs out of it before it started to fade. Great minds think alike

I had thought at one time although obtaining this now would be a bit hard perhaps there are some typewriter ribbons that you can trim the size. Things like Selectric's used a plastic film at one time I was thinking about how to  make something that I can run the typewriter ribbon through and it would trim off the excess and give me a piece the right size but I never got that far as the regional school I had was fine plus some more I think I have a bonus new spool

 

then you really don't need a ribbon anyway. The problem with some of the timing machines in the past were things like this. You notice how the paper feeds from the bottom and your printing on the opposite side of the machine in your picture. This means you can use the B200 paper and toss the ribbon away.

2 hours ago, praezis said:

Btw: few months ago I put an Elma TM on Ebay. Though it was fully functional (tested, warranted), had much accessory, had transistorized electronics, I had to be happy to find someone to pay EUR 70.

the price on eBay of use timing machines with paper tape can be quite amusing. I keep it active eBay search for timing machines just because I like to see what turns up. Right now I was checking the completed or sold items and all the wishful thinkers of getting several hundred dollars for their vintage timing machine they basically aren't selling. or basically there is an amusing discrepancy between what people were hoping for and what people will take to get rid of their timing machine.

Not to say that the vintage machines don't sell I recently purchased one for $65 with free shipping included. As advertised as not working minus the power supply which was also quite amusing as the definition of power supply is power cord. then the description was accurate that machine would not turn on and definitely was not running due to the fact that the belt had disintegrated. On the other hand I didn't actually buy it for the timing machine which was a Vibrograf MR600. I purchased it because it included a microphone a rather interesting microphone. Okay technically it had one of the half microphones it did have the base of the microphone that was supposed to come with the machine minus the top part? The second microphone was a really interesting red color and does seem to resemble a witschi watch expert number one microphone. Although I do feel sad for anyone that has one of these? In the picture I couldn't quite tell about the cord it almost looked like someone had modified the cord but I was wrong the shiny copper that I can see is the shielding the black insulation has entirely disintegrate. Hopefully that's not the  future of all witschi microphone cords?

So basically I purchased it for witschi microphone with a bonus paperweight type machine that wasn't really that expensive.

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Sounds like I should pass on it. I just fancied a new toy to play with, the weishi is getting a bit boring

what would be a really interesting new toy to get is to find one of the  before paper machines. Some of those were quite fascinating as they did have a spinning disk a flashing strobe light and they were probably quite interesting although I don't think I've ever seen one come up for sale on eBay.

But maybe you need a little more convincing as it would be a new toy to play with and we did discuss it relatively recently.

 

 

 

 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

1 hour ago, JohnR725 said:

paper tapes aren't necessarily that loud in fact the ticking of the timing machine is much nicer than the synthetic ticking of the Chinese timing machines. Although it is rather embarrassing if you're in a classroom and your watches too much amplitude of the timing machine sounds like a horse galloping then maybe it is to win the entire world knows that you have a problem. I'll skip over how I know that

 

I had thought at one time although obtaining this now would be a bit hard perhaps there are some typewriter ribbons that you can trim the size. Things like Selectric's used a plastic film at one time I was thinking about how to  make something that I can run the typewriter ribbon through and it would trim off the excess and give me a piece the right size but I never got that far as the regional school I had was fine plus some more I think I have a bonus new spool

 

then you really don't need a ribbon anyway. The problem with some of the timing machines in the past were things like this. You notice how the paper feeds from the bottom and your printing on the opposite side of the machine in your picture. This means you can use the B200 paper and toss the ribbon away.

the price on eBay of use timing machines with paper tape can be quite amusing. I keep it active eBay search for timing machines just because I like to see what turns up. Right now I was checking the completed or sold items and all the wishful thinkers of getting several hundred dollars for their vintage timing machine they basically aren't selling. or basically there is an amusing discrepancy between what people were hoping for and what people will take to get rid of their timing machine.

Not to say that the vintage machines don't sell I recently purchased one for $65 with free shipping included. As advertised as not working minus the power supply which was also quite amusing as the definition of power supply is power cord. then the description was accurate that machine would not turn on and definitely was not running due to the fact that the belt had disintegrated. On the other hand I didn't actually buy it for the timing machine which was a Vibrograf MR600. I purchased it because it included a microphone a rather interesting microphone. Okay technically it had one of the half microphones it did have the base of the microphone that was supposed to come with the machine minus the top part? The second microphone was a really interesting red color and does seem to resemble a witschi watch expert number one microphone. Although I do feel sad for anyone that has one of these? In the picture I couldn't quite tell about the cord it almost looked like someone had modified the cord but I was wrong the shiny copper that I can see is the shielding the black insulation has entirely disintegrate. Hopefully that's not the  future of all witschi microphone cords?

So basically I purchased it for witschi microphone with a bonus paperweight type machine that wasn't really that expensive.

what would be a really interesting new toy to get is to find one of the  before paper machines. Some of those were quite fascinating as they did have a spinning disk a flashing strobe light and they were probably quite interesting although I don't think I've ever seen one come up for sale on eBay.

But maybe you need a little more convincing as it would be a new toy to play with and we did discuss it relatively recently.

 

 

 

 

 

That's interesting reading John, I still haven't made my mind up if I want it or not. It doesn't need to outperform the Weishi, just do something different. 

[caseback]

7 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

It doesn't need to outperform the Weishi, just do something different. 

It has a loudspeaker connection so it enables you to listen to what is actually going on in the movement. 

Something to be aware of, is that these old things are quite......old.

Old electronics, especially electrolytic capacitors, will eventually fail.

Edited March 25 by caseback

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, caseback said:

It has a loudspeaker connection so it enables you to listen to what is actually going on in the movement. 

Thanks Cees , i remember you mentioning that a week pr so ago, thats why I am interested in buying it. 

[JohnR725]

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

hat's interesting reading John, I still haven't made my mind up if I want it or not. It doesn't need to outperform the Weishi, just do something different. 

it's interesting in that it has moving parts and lights up and it makes ticking sounds it prints and?

3 hours ago, caseback said:

omething to be aware of, is that these old things are quite......old.

Old electronics, especially electrolytic capacitors, will eventually fail.

this brings up an interesting problem? Yes typically the transistorized ones or the newer generation tend to be filled with electrolytic capacitors. So for instance the B200 machine I think I at least two of them I had gone through and replace all the capacitors for people I vaguely recall one of the capacitors had leaked. They just don't last forever but how many electrolytic capacitors are in a vacuum tube machine?

from the other discussion where I found the manual unfortunately not in English and not super sharp but still. How many electrolytic capacitors would you find in something with a vacuum tube? I don't see the usual large ones in the metal cans typically are sitting upright like the vacuum tubes themselves. It does look like in the image up above there may be one laying down but I can't tell if that's electrolytic. I almost think there's no electrolytic sotalol which I find quite interesting but it's hard to tell from the schematic it's a bit fuzzy and the images there may be one lurking underneath someplace is usually one associate with the power supply somewhere.

then for @praezis I believe commented on calibration there does appear to be three separate crystals but I can't quite tell what the frequencies are the schematic really is fuzzy. Why can't people scanned things in higher resolution?

1 hour ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

Thanks Cees , i remember you mentioning that a week pr so ago, thats why I am interested in buying it.

yes that would definitely be one reason for purchasing this. Then it looks remarkably clean for its age and it's a piece of timing machine history. It's actually quite a nice looking machine.

[caseback]

21 minutes ago, JohnR725 said:

They just don't last forever but how many electrolytic capacitors are in a vacuum tube machine?

I spy with my little eye, some things that begin with an "E"... 

[Neverenoughwatches]

17 minutes ago, caseback said:

I spy with my little eye, some things that begin with an "E"... 

Looks like an awful lot to go wrong in there. 

[JohnR725]

13 minutes ago, caseback said:

things that begin with an "E".

that machine looks familiar I think I have one lurking somewhere in the house

okay let's look at something newer like a B200 a classic timing machine minus its case

how many electrolytic capacitors can you spot? Does look like a few more of them than found in a vacuum tube machine

here's one of the boards out of the machine notice the electrolytic's don't look their best at least two of them. Which of course brings up the problem of they eventually will fail and typically they will not always visually show that they have failed. In other words the fluid just typically dries up and doesn't typically leak out

then while were here time standards and the evolution of the B200 timing machine. With way more electrolytic capacitors on the vintage crystal version. I wonder how long the tantalum capacitor will last? That would be on the one on the left

 

 

[oldhippy]

My two were different models to those shown. One of mine burned holes in paper showing the printout didn't use inks so it must have been an antique 

 

Here you are. The first is the one that burned the dots. 

Edited March 25 by oldhippy

[praezis]

This thread becomes a nice trip through history of TMs.

Unfortunately these devices are worth nearly nothing today. Their most valuable part is the microphone (many are still ok): you can use them easily with software TMs and will get a comfortable modern device.

My favorite machine was a Vibrograph VS32, the most advanced flagship TM of the 40s:

I had invested much time restoring it and adjusting its frequency divider - many years ago.
Few years ago, short of sufficient space, I decided to dump the above unit . The possible 50.- on Ebay - if at all - was not worth any effort.

A nice walk through TM history can be found here (German text, many pictures).

Frank

[Neverenoughwatches]

I'm looking at buying a 60+ old machine then, that could fail soon after I start using it. I might struggle to get the printout tape  ( cousins dont have many left ) unlikely i will get any more of the ink reels. The micrphone is useful for use in some timing softwear and annoying my neighbours,  but that's going to cost me 100 quid with shipping. I'm sold .....nah I think I will leave it be unless I can get the seller down to 50 quid. Thanks fellas I appreciate the feedback and the trip down memory lane. 

[AndyGSi]

My major concerns and hence why it with others have been sat in my watch
list is the size and the ribbons, everything else that may occur is fixable.

[oldhippy]

In my first photo it shows the microphone earpiece. To start the thing you had to spin that knob sticking out on the right hand side to get it started.

[Neverenoughwatches]

31 minutes ago, AndyGSi said:

My major concerns and hence why it with others have been sat in my watch
list is the size and the ribbons, everything else that may occur is fixable.

You're much more electronically minded than me Andy, if it needed fixing, I would be scratching my head for days. 

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

In my first photo it shows the microphone earpiece. To start the thing you had to spin that knob sticking out on the right hand side to get it started.

Like a cranking handle OH ? , do you remember way back when cars had those ?