Resstarting a Three Barrel Smith Mantle Clock

[wyleu]

A friend asked me to look at a Smith Three Barrel Mantle Clock. So I read 

With interest. The clock mechanism appears identical.

The clock I have exhibits two basic faults. 

1/ One of the chime bars (please correct my terminology), the one adjacent to the bar that operates the hour chime, is very tightly boind to the shaft throu' which the pivot passes. The other bars fall back after operation but this particular one sticks. It can be turned against the shaft if the flats on the end of the pivot bar are held with pliers but it remains tight. I have soaked the chiming mechanism in white spirit for a night, but this has not freed things up, so it is in for one more soak but with less optimism. 

 

I cannot see how to dissemble the mechanism further than I have done, and don't wish to apply force ineffectually if there is a technique.

 

2/ The escapement stalls. I have balance the pendulum, using an microphone and audacity to produce ticks of equal duration, but it still locks firmly at some point, which isn't consistent on one particular tooth. 
I haven't immersed the mechanism, deciding to use the technique on the chime bars first to see how effective it was.  

 

 

I have removed the barrels after relieving the tension of them, with my new amazon acquired tool. But have not opened them as I am unsure how to reassemble them after I have oiled them. 

I would like to free the chime bar first as that will demonstrate some progress before going on to further effort on the escapement. 

One other issue I have marked the chimes so that I can align the chime sequence but would appreciate some specific advice as to how this is confirmed normally.

Thanks in anticipation.

 

[MikeEll]

where are you based?

[wyleu]

Sandbach. 

Rather joyously after, examining the chimes after the second soak, they have cleared beautifully. I can only assume the manipulation after the first soak allowed the white spirit to soak in properly. 

The main mechanism now rests in a two litre Tesco's ice cream container, with about a litre and a half of white spirit. 
I'm setting myself up for a similar  day agitate day cycle.

[Dell]

Have a look here

https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/Clock-Repair/Chime-Clock-Basics

[MikeEll]

1 hour ago, wyleu said:

Sandbach. 
 

Ah, not too far from me actually.  I'm down the road in Chester.  If you're tempted to head over I can check it over and assist.

[wyleu]

Thanks for the offer. I will persist at the moment, but I will no doubt cry like a child if it fails.

[wyleu]

35 minutes ago, Dell said:

Have a look here

https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/Clock-Repair/Chime-Clock-Basics

Thanks, that's what I was looking for.

 

I made up this previously.

clock-chimes-pattern.pdf

[wyleu]

I've soaked it in white spirit and no more crud appears to be coming out of the bearings.

But it still stops and I can see no obvious cause,. It doesn't appear to catch on specific teeth.

I have made best effort to balance the escapement using the larger of the two screws, But it still stalls. I'm not keen to separate the plates but am unsure how to proceed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JZvdpEuOQzFLvTBmg5RYx3Yq10pqFT6l/view?usp=sharing

[Dell]

Probably worn bushings 

[oldhippy]

I have been watching this can I ask you how far have you got and what problems are you facing? I have serviced many of these and should be able to help you. 

[wyleu]

Thanks for the reply.

Without dissembling the plates is there any way of assessing the bearing damage? Examination is hard, as access is obviously limited, and I do not detect any obvious play in any of the appropriate shafts, but don't know what constitutes acceptable performance in this regard. The chimes and the strike both behave admirably. 
I believe this to be an anchor movement. Am I correct in this assumption? 

How much horizontal play should there be on the anchor? The whole anchor shaft can be moved in line with the bearings by at least a millimetre.

I have soaked the clock in white spirit for three successive days and dried it between each soaking. Firstly face down then face up and then once more face down. All visible gunk in the bearings had cleared by then. 
I previously removed the chimes which cleared in two days, and convinced me that it was a viable cleaning technique.
Upon reassembling( I haven't soaked the barrels or opened them. I powered them down and they seemed to turn acceptably without obvious binding)I have bolted it to an angle bracket and carefully adjusted it to ensure the top of the frame is level. The clock is not vertical front to back as the two bottom brackets are both inclined away from vertical. Moving the top mounting bracket forward by approximately 4mm brings it in to level.

I have reattached the pendulum.

I have adjusted the pendulum offset by setting it to central position then recording the tick and adjusting to produce a 50/50 duty cycle on the recording. 
I did not undue the anchor screw until after I had reassembled the clock and it still stalled. But felt the need to do so to access the anchor internal faces which I have cleaned. The look ok, polished and show no obvious signs of wear. I have used the back of a scalpel to ensure the teeth of the wheel are not burred (mea culpa) and they seem consistent, and the behaviour seemed improved by this rash and inexperienced act . It ticks for almost a circuit of the wheel but seems to loose energy and then catches with the pendulum firm when it does so. I have run the barrel for the escapement at the low end of the spring tension.
I lack tools to progress much further having the sort of things more used for electrical work. I have magnifying glasses and a magnifying glass but am, now considering adjusting lighting to allow different views to see what is actually happening. 

The bearings, to my limited experience seem ok, and the chimes and strikes both behave smoothly. It's been an interesting journey and I've learnt so much. There wasn't much hope when it was handed over, But if I return it un fuctioning I would like to do so with some guidance as to where the issue lies. I don't think it would prompt investment on the part of the owners, but I would at least hope that who ever ventures in next, doesn't condemn my efforts but I fully expect the censure. 

[oldhippy]

You are correct it has what is known as an  anchor escapement. You can remove the three barrels without taking the movement apart. I think you are getting a little bit obsessed with endshake (play) The barrels should be able to move with no power on them I can assure that it is correct so don't worry. In order to clean springs and inside the barrels you need a clock mainspring winder, cleaning the springs and barrels are needed in order for the clock to run correctly, it also help it to keep better time, at times springs can get worn or tired and need replacing. A good clock oil is required. Alway check the pivot holes for wear as one of the common thing that can cause these movements to stop is wear so re-bushing will be needed and pivots polished, which you can't do without taking the whole movement apart.  

[wyleu]

3 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

You can remove the three barrels without taking the movement apart.

Yes. I did that. Numbering the components.
 

 

3 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I think you are getting a little bit obsessed with endshake (play)

It is similar to other horizontal movement. I was unsure if it was an issue. 

I used the oil I have in a needle applicator. And used the smallest drop I could apply. 

Are there specific bearings that fail in these clocks or do faults develop based on environment and random luck?
When the clock stops it stops with the trailing anchor face on top of a wheel tooth. 

My electronic side feels like adding a solenoid and an arduino to 'assist' this mechanism....


That' would be cheating wouldn't it? 

[oldhippy]

All pivots and oil wells should be oiled, both pallet faces as well and a tiny drop on every other tooth of the escape wheel. Mark the tooth on the escape wheel when it stops, then start it and see it stops in the same place, it might be a case that the pallet cock just needs adjusting, that is the small plate that has two screws that holds the pallets on the back plate. Make sure the suspension spring is good if it has a kink in it or broken replace it. 

[wyleu]

39 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

it might be a case that the pallet cock just needs adjusting

Is this the screw on the head of the anchor.? That has a flat on the shaft under the screw so presumably this adjusts itself to that level? or is it the screw that adjusts the centring of the pendulum?

Does the horizontal position of the anchor need specific adjustment or is it to be centred over the wheel? 

 

The stop does not occur on any specific tooth. 

 

 

Edited March 29 by wyleu

[oldhippy]

The balance cock is the part that these two screws hold (marked in Red) The movement looks filthy. Picture 1 is the suspension spring which look good. If the clock is just stopping then you need to look for wear like the pivot holes or even worn pivots. You could spend a long time fiddling around trying this and that and not getting any wear, I suggest you strip the movement down, get three plastic tubs and keep the three trains separate. I can help you put it all back to me it is easy.    

[wyleu]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I suggest you strip the movement down, get three plastic tubs and keep the three trains separate. I can help you put it all back to me it is easy.

Why thank you. This is much appreciated. 

I will acquire a suitable approval to proceed .

[wyleu]

I have been given the approval to go ahead.
Obviously I remove the barrels, first and set those aside. 
You say I should strip the three sections into separate containers. 
Is there a best practice procedure and ordering for remove of parts. Obviously I will be taking lots of photos.
For instance do I remove components from the front face before opening the plates and how do I allocate the parts removed from the front face to which functional group ? 
And how susceptible to damage and reuse are the tuning fork like clips that hold components on the front face?

I am trying to ensure that nothing gets mislaid and also the naming of parts.

 

[oldhippy]

Remove all the parts on the outside of both plates and as you said take photos. Then unscrew the four nuts that hold the back plate and remove the back plate (now is a good time to take photos so you can see how the wheels go, if you like practice a few times by removing and putting back, when ready remove one section at a time and put in to there respective tubs, I always had them in this order  starting from the left Chime Time and Strike its the same when you look at the three trains when you remove the backplate. Now we will start to look at the wheels on the chime side so look at the teeth and pinions and pivots making sure all is well, now with each wheel put it in its proper place in the plate and put both plates together and check for where in the holes if there is to much wear in the hole it will need re-bushing, do this with all the wheels from each so chime wheels first then time and finally strike. When this has been done let me know if any work needs to be undertaken.  

[wyleu]

I've stripped most elements off the front and back face...

1/ I probably need better screwdrivers to prevent damage to the screw heads.

2/ I do not like opening the horseshoe clips. IS there a tool that addresses these without having to adopt rather ad-hoc solutions.?

As can be seen I haven't removed all components as I suspect force may be required to progress from this point. 

Some components appear to be semi permanent but I'm awaiting guidance to proceed without damage.

 

I have photographed the front bearing of the anchor support.  How does it look?

 

All components have been photographed as dissembled and I'm sticking them in a database cos' that's the sort of thing I do.

 

Presumably this is too much play on the bearing in the first shaft after the barrel on the going train?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QE2lgATzb7gxA_s8JZZs1OSlD7qyFrxE/view?usp=drive_link

 

[oldhippy]

To answer about the clips I don't know of any tool. I used a small pair of pliers. When you put them back on just squeeze them to make sure they won't come off and the part is free in moving. The two parts with red on them should be removed, the other part with blue should be removed but can be difficult so this time leave it on. Looking at the center wheel from the other side that can be removed. It should have a pin that goes through some times it is bent to prevent it from coming out sometimes it is  straight which ever remove it and the steel star like spring and the wheel will come off and a small thick washer and put all that lot in you Time tub. Have you checked the all that I said to check. If so you can now clean all the parts. How do you intend to clean the parts and dry the parts?

[wyleu]

 

38 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

The two parts with red on them should be removed

Done that now.  Boxed with front face components. 

 

38 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Looking at the center wheel

Not sure which you mean by this. Is it the centre shaft the hands are on? as identified in blue in the following picture?

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

Yes that is the center wheel so when you turn the movement over and take it all apart you will be left with the center wheel then follow my instructions on how to take it apart. 

[wyleu]

The centre wheel has now been stripped. The small wire broke when removed but either of the remaining ends will provide enough to reassemble.

I have been cleaning the flat surfaces and bearings with tissue, q-tips and cocktail sticks. This has been done dry so far.

I presume the wheels are in need of a soak and clean after. I used white spirit but was wondering if acetone might be more effective. 

There appears to be no obvious damage to any component but they are dirty. I'm assuming a soak followed by cleaning with a tissue should remove any further crud. 

What would you recommend for soaking and how long?

[wyleu]

I have assembled the three sections independently and dissembled and reassembled the two plates with each of the three sections.

That has considerably settled my feelings about this.I have photos to allow me t repeat this process.