Finally dipping my toes into clocks... Seth Thomas 1302

[spectre6000]

FINALLY found a suitable clock for my office at an estate sale the other day for $20. No key, so no telling if it worked or not. For nearly half the cost of the clock, I was able to get a key delivered today. Wound it up, and it sorta works... It's a balance wheel escapement, and amplitude is barely more than the balance side opening of the fork. Chime tries to run, but won't quite get there. Looks like someone might have tried to grease it with axle grease on a Q-tip or something... The case is mahogany, and in decent shape. I've found photos of a few of these, and they all seem to have a pretty nasty crack along the face at the base of the movement; I'm guessing from the mounting screw being driven too deep based on some of the damage inside. On the whole though, looks good aesthetically after a little clean and some lemon oil. It's fairly new (August of 1970), so I'm hopeful the wear isn't too bad.

Movement is a German A401-003 with two jewels.

Here's a video of it sorta running:

I looked around online, and there's very little about the clock or movement. Not especially old, interesting, nice, or cheap. Just smack in the middle of nothing interesting save that it should get the job done.

This will be the first clock I tackle. If one is reasonably proficient with watches, what's the best jumping off point for clocks? Any particular tools specific to clocks to look into acquiring? Any insights or advice on this particular guy? Pretty excited about it.

As I've been typing this, it sounds like the escapement has been gaining amplitude... Freeing up somehow... No idea what that grease is, but it's thick, crusty, and seems to be moving out of the way maybe?

[HectorLooi]

Nice floating balance clock. Case looks pretty decentm

You need to get a mainspring let down tool and a mainspring winder. Thick gloves and eye protection. 

Hopefully you won't need to rebush any holes. Just clean and oil.

Materials needed - clock cleaning solution, Moebius 9020, clock oil, D5/HP1300, general purpose grease and a lot of elbow grease.

[Dell]

That looks very like a Hermle movement 

[MikeEll]

52 minutes ago, Dell said:

That looks very like a Hermle movement 

It is a Hermle movement, a 340-020.  Seth Thomas (and many others) use the same ones.  Hermle provide re-branded movements to many of the 'makers', including Comitti.

[oldhippy]

It needs a good clean and oil, the balance is hardly moving. Seth Thomas bought those movement in. 

[spectre6000]

20 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Nice floating balance clock. Case looks pretty decentm

You need to get a mainspring let down tool and a mainspring winder. Thick gloves and eye protection. 

Hopefully you won't need to rebush any holes. Just clean and oil.

Materials needed - clock cleaning solution, Moebius 9020, clock oil, D5/HP1300, general purpose grease and a lot of elbow grease.

I got a key, so that should handle half the equation. I also hope I don't need to rebush any holes... As relatively new as it is, and with the case looking as good as it does, I might just get lucky!

15 hours ago, Dell said:

That looks very like a Hermle movement 

15 hours ago, MikeEll said:

It is a Hermle movement, a 340-020.  Seth Thomas (and many others) use the same ones.  Hermle provide re-branded movements to many of the 'makers', including Comitti.

Sounds plausible. Would Seth Thomas have had a different movement number put on it? It certainly looks similar from what I can see. Not exact, but similar. There are differences in the chime section at the bottom...

14 hours ago, oldhippy said:

It needs a good clean and oil, the balance is hardly moving. Seth Thomas bought those movement in. 

I watched one video (all I had time for) last night for servicing AN clock movement. Nothing jumped out at me as being all that special short of experience knowing how the chime side is generally laid out. Hopefully I can find a service sheet or something...

[HectorLooi]

2 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I got a key, so that should handle half the equation.

Have you watched the video on how to make a let down tool from the winding key?

Don't be tempted to unwind the clock with the key. You're going to end up with a black thumb. All us clockies can testify to that.

If the video you watched on clock servicing is by Scotties clock world.... be very careful and discerning. @oldhippy would have a lot more to say about his videos.

[Dell]

7 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I watched one video (all I had time for) last night for servicing AN clock movement. Nothing jumped out at me as being all that special short of experience knowing how the chime side is generally laid out. Hopefully I can find a service sheet or something...

Have a look here for setting up chime & strike.

[MikeEll]

11 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Sounds plausible. Would Seth Thomas have had a different movement number put on it? It certainly looks similar from what I can see. Not exact, but similar. There are differences in the chime section at the bottom...

Its definitely a Hermle movement.  Hermle make these for other clock makers and add their branding to the backplate.  The movement design may have changed slightly over the years, but definitely the same one.  Here's an example from 1984, looks identical to the one in your pictures.

Edited March 27 by MikeEll

[spectre6000]

I pulled the hands, removed the movement from the case, let the springs down with the key (hadn't seen the warning, but managed to do so without injury), and removed the balance this evening (last night). 

I'll need to figure out how I'm going to clean this exactly... I want to put it in the ultrasonic, but I don't like anything but water directly in the tank. So I need to find some intermediate container that is big enough for the plates, but small enough for the US tank... Also, need to figure out what I'm going to use to clean it. That's a LOT of L&R... Need to look into clock cleaning fluid, but as grungy and oily as this movement is, I'm not sure it's worth soiling much anything this badly without some intermediate step.

@HectorLooi, what are the use cases for the oils/grease you referenced up there? I've now seen two videos; one guy washed the movement in gasoline without disassembly (I didn't finish that one) and the other guy used the same unnamed oil for everything and also did a fancy cut scene where the cleaning part would have gone.

Finally, this thing is supposed to have two jewel bearings. I can't find them! I thought the balance wheel, but it's suspended by the hair spring and positioned with a wire. No bearings at all. Then, I'd think it'd be one of the fast moving parts (flies?), but nope. Could be under something on the dial side, but doesn't seem super likely... 

Need to see if I can find a service sheet or something for this movement...

I don't know if either of the videos I watched were from Scotty's Clock World, but I do recognize the name. The one I have going currently is a more or less no-name account. An old guy doing one from start to finish (I assume, it's an hour and a half long) complete with his wife coming in and discussing plans to have lunch with the kids over the weekend for birthdays or something. I'm also doing some computationally heavy computer things (very intermittent involvement from me) and watching children simultaneously, so it's pretty slow going and punctuated...

[RichardHarris123]

Petrol works well, oil grease and lacquer all gone. 

[HectorLooi]

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

I pulled the hands, removed the movement from the case, let the springs down with the key (hadn't seen the warning, but managed to do so without injury), and removed the balance this evening (last night). 

I'll need to figure out how I'm going to clean this exactly... I want to put it in the ultrasonic, but I don't like anything but water directly in the tank. So I need to find some intermediate container that is big enough for the plates, but small enough for the US tank... Also, need to figure out what I'm going to use to clean it. That's a LOT of L&R... Need to look into clock cleaning fluid, but as grungy and oily as this movement is, I'm not sure it's worth soiling much anything this badly without some intermediate step.

@HectorLooi, what are the use cases for the oils/grease you referenced up there? I've now seen two videos; one guy washed the movement in gasoline without disassembly (I didn't finish that one) and the other guy used the same unnamed oil for everything and also did a fancy cut scene where the cleaning part would have gone.

Finally, this thing is supposed to have two jewel bearings. I can't find them! I thought the balance wheel, but it's suspended by the hair spring and positioned with a wire. No bearings at all. Then, I'd think it'd be one of the fast moving parts (flies?), but nope. Could be under something on the dial side, but doesn't seem super likely... 

Need to see if I can find a service sheet or something for this movement...

I don't know if either of the videos I watched were from Scotty's Clock World, but I do recognize the name. The one I have going currently is a more or less no-name account. An old guy doing one from start to finish (I assume, it's an hour and a half long) complete with his wife coming in and discussing plans to have lunch with the kids over the weekend for birthdays or something. I'm also doing some computationally heavy computer things (very intermittent involvement from me) and watching children simultaneously, so it's pretty slow going and punctuated...

The answers to your questions can probably fill a few books.

The 2 jewels in this clock are hidden in the tube of the floating balance. The wire passing through the jewels must be straight, corrosion free and clean. Soak the balance in a water free solvent like lighter fluid to soften any dried lubricants and brush it with a soft brush. Dry thoroughly and apply a tiny amount of 9010/9020 on the wire where the jewels sit and work the balance up and down slightly to distribute the oil. Do a free oscillation test. The balance wheel should turn freely.

If the movement is really dirty, I'd do a preclean with odorless kerosene. I used to use petrol or turpentine, but I found odorless kerosene gentler on the nose.

Kerosene does a pretty good job on its own but it doesn't brighten up the brass. So an ammoniated clock cleaning solution would be needed, such as Horolene or Elma Red 1:9. A couple of rinses with distilled water is needed, followed by a quick dip in 98% IPA to displace any water. These are water based cleaners and can cause steel parts to rust if not dried quickly and thoroughly. 

[oldhippy]

Looking at the back plate you need to look at the center wheel pivot and hole I don't like all that black that is normally a sign of wear. Clean the movement in Horolene. 

[watchweasol]

Hi Spectre6000. I have attached some information on the Hermle 340. Movement. Seen these movements marked  as in your case Seth Thomas , but irs a Hermle 340.      I have the Hermle  book with quite a bit of general info in like lubrication and the. Chime sequences if needed. One document is in German .

8126_Hermle 340-020.pdf 166_Hermle 340.020.pdf 8502_Hermle W0340 and W1050.pdf

[rjenkinsgb]

6 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I want to put it in the ultrasonic, but I don't like anything but water directly in the tank. So I need to find some intermediate container that is big enough for the plates, but small enough for the US tank...

My last resort is a heavy duty ziplock bag! They are generally OK with oil derived solvents like paraffin or L&R, but I'd not risk acetone or similar.

[spectre6000]

I got some appropriately sized aluminum baking trays at the grocery store today. All I'm going to be able to manage at the moment. Wife's birthday today. 

10 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

The answers to your questions can probably fill a few books.

The 2 jewels in this clock are hidden in the tube of the floating balance. The wire passing through the jewels must be straight, corrosion free and clean. Soak the balance in a water free solvent like lighter fluid to soften any dried lubricants and brush it with a soft brush. Dry thoroughly and apply a tiny amount of 9010/9020 on the wire where the jewels sit and work the balance up and down slightly to distribute the oil. Do a free oscillation test. The balance wheel should turn freely.

If the movement is really dirty, I'd do a preclean with odorless kerosene. I used to use petrol or turpentine, but I found odorless kerosene gentler on the nose.

Kerosene does a pretty good job on its own but it doesn't brighten up the brass. So an ammoniated clock cleaning solution would be needed, such as Horolene or Elma Red 1:9. A couple of rinses with distilled water is needed, followed by a quick dip in 98% IPA to displace any water. These are water based cleaners and can cause steel parts to rust if not dried quickly and thoroughly. 

Good to know. I'll probably start with gasoline, since I have some. It'll flash off in a pan too, so easier to dispose of. Might actually do before I even take the movement apart... It's super grungy.

The balance on a wire like that made me think it might be some sort of lubrication free strategy. Good to know the jewels are inside. I'll pay special attention there, and hit it with some canned air when I'm done soaking it. I'll need to find time to track down and order some ammoniated solution. If it doesn't look pretty, what's the point?

8 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Looking at the back plate you need to look at the center wheel pivot and hole I don't like all that black that is normally a sign of wear. Clean the movement in Horolene. 

I think what you're seeing is a combination of shadow and schmutz. I have it on the table top here under much better light, and I think it looks super duper clean and tight. Someone has been in here before based on the wood/mounting screws, and I don't know what the deal is with the axle grease (the guy I bought it from was a machinist at the Coors brewery in Golden, was into cars, etc. but this was the only horological artifact among the whole lot).

6 hours ago, watchweasol said:

Hi Spectre6000. I have attached some information on the Hermle 340. Movement. Seen these movements marked  as in your case Seth Thomas , but irs a Hermle 340.      I have the Hermle  book with quite a bit of general info in like lubrication and the. Chime sequences if needed. One document is in German .

8126_Hermle 340-020.pdf 278.69 kB · 4 downloads 166_Hermle 340.020.pdf 2.21 MB · 2 downloads 8502_Hermle W0340 and W1050.pdf 2.34 MB · 2 downloads

Excellent! Thank you! 

5 hours ago, rjenkinsgb said:

My last resort is a heavy duty ziplock bag! They are generally OK with oil derived solvents like paraffin or L&R, but I'd not risk acetone or similar.

Actually, I might go this route... I have the aluminum trays, but they may end up being more for sorting parts than anything else...

[HectorLooi]

Has anyone taken this course in clock repair? There is a free course for seniors above 55 years old. 

https://learntimeonline.com/

 

[caseback]

2 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Has anyone taken this course in clock repair? There is a free course for seniors above 55 years old. 

https://learntimeonline.com/

 

Being labeled as a senior citizen just because you're over 55 years of age is quite confronting. That alone might just be a reason not enroll.

[MikeEll]

5 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Has anyone taken this course in clock repair? There is a free course for seniors above 55 years old. 

https://learntimeonline.com/

 

Interesting.  On deeper investigation it seems that there is a free content page, which is essentially a series of links to videos on Youtube, which we can all access anyway.  The so-called 'ultra horology course' is a paid-for course ($97).   Also, there doesn't appear to be any sort of age check to determine whether you are 55 or not.  'Silver seniors'..... pffftt, I'd rather pay, ha ha.  

 

Edited March 28 by MikeEll

[spectre6000]

On 3/27/2025 at 7:52 AM, RichardHarris123 said:

Petrol works well, oil grease and lacquer all gone. 

Lacquer as in what makes the movement stay shiny and pretty and prevents oxidation? Best left in tact? Or lacquer as in dried oil and sludge that needs to be removed?

[RichardHarris123]

1 hour ago, spectre6000 said:

Lacquer as in what makes the movement stay shiny and pretty and prevents oxidation?

Yes, it needs removing, cleaning/ polishing and relacquering. 

Waiting for @oldhippyto chime in. 

[Dell]

13 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

Has anyone taken this course in clock repair? There is a free course for seniors above 55 years old. 

https://learntimeonline.com/

 

I have the ultra but I purchased it for the lathe course but it has a Hermle course included.

[spectre6000]

Trying to find lacquer. Reading up, it seems the preferred is probably brushed on Horolacq, but can't seem to get that in the US. All I'm finding is a spray variety... 

Also, now that we're so "great", it's worth trying to find US sources that have already brought materials into the country in hopes that I can avoid paying the hefty new taxes. My go-to stateside has been Esslinger, but it seems they don't really do much with clocks. What's the story on getting clockmaking goodies stateside?

Edited 21 hours ago by spectre6000

[LittleWatchShop]

I just serviced one of these. Needed one new bushing. I fully disassembled it and cleaned using L&R cleaning solution. Yes it removed the laquer. Reassembled, oiled and adjusted. I did not replace the laquer. It is my clock.

[HectorLooi]

4 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

Reading up, it seems the preferred is probably brushed on Horolacq

I bought a bottle of Horolacq several years ago, when it could still be exported.

I was not impressed by it. It seemed to dry slowly and the surface was sticky to the touch even after weeks. I even tried baking it in my oven at 120°C for 30mins but it still felt sticky. Maybe it was on the shelf for too long and the shellac doesn't dry properly anymore.

And the lacquered brass still tarnished after 2 years. It's not the same Horolacq that @oldhippy talks about anymore.

I haven't tried lacquering the plates yet because I haven't figured out how to plug up the holes to prevent laquer from getting into them. I have read that pegwood is whittled down and pushed into the holes but that doesn't mask the part of the bushes that the arbor rubs against.

I have tried Rust Oleum clear lacquer spray on external clock parts and that seems to work much better.