Need help manipulating a balance spring, again!

[VWatchie]

After eight years in this hobby, I still—somewhat embarrassingly—find myself utterly at a loss, almost paralyzed, whenever I need to manipulate a hairspring. Where should I apply pressure, and in which direction, to get it back in shape?

Last time, @nickelsilver and @nevenbekriev helped me out. Thank you! Would you be willing to lend a hand again? As I said, it feels embarrassing to keep asking for help with the same thing over and over, but right now, I don’t see any other option.

The background to this is that I was trying to pry off the balance cock on this Vostok 2414 that was extremely tight. At that moment, the careful side of me said, "Remember @Nucejoe's advice—only loosen the screw slightly so the balance cock doesn’t launch itself into the Russian space program." Meanwhile, the lazy side of me said, "Don’t waste your time on unnecessary precautions. Just go for it! No one remembers a coward!" Unfortunately, I listened to my lazy side, and the balance cock shot up at least a decimeter into the air before landing on its back—damage done.

The irony is that this happens just as I've explained to @ChrisInOz that the seasoned among us have developed strategies to minimize risks! Gosh! 

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

After eight years in this hobby, I still—somewhat embarrassingly—find myself utterly at a loss, almost paralyzed, whenever I need to manipulate a hairspring. Where should I apply pressure, and in which direction, to get it back in shape?

Last time, @nickelsilver and @nevenbekriev helped me out. Thank you! Would you be willing to lend a hand again? As I said, it feels embarrassing to keep asking for help with the same thing over and over, but right now, I don’t see any other option.

The background to this is that I was trying to pry off the balance cock on this Vostok 2414 that was extremely tight. At that moment, the careful side of me said, "Remember @Nucejoe's advice—only loosen the screw slightly so the balance cock doesn’t launch itself into the Russian space program." Meanwhile, the lazy side of me said, "Don’t waste your time on unnecessary precautions. Just go for it! No one remembers a coward!" Unfortunately, I listened to my lazy side, and the balance cock shot up at least a decimeter into the air before landing on its back—damage done.

The irony is that this happens just as I've explained to @ChrisInOz that the seasoned among us have developed strategies to minimize risks! Gosh! 

 

Thats really unlucky H , i can honestly say, never once has that happened to me. What causes this to happen, any ideas ?

I can only think that a seized up balance stuck a long way from rest could cause this.

[HectorLooi]

What's wrong with the spring? It doesn't look too bad.

[nevenbekriev]

Yes, we need to see what happened to the spring. I may guess it has stretched like a funnel, is it the case? If so, then You will need to remove the balance from the cock and show picture of the spring where the deformation is seen.

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, nevenbekriev said:

You will need to remove the balance from the cock and show picture of the spring where the deformation is seen.

I’ll take a picture tomorrow as soon as I get a chance.

6 hours ago, HectorLooi said:

What's wrong with the spring? It doesn't look too bad.

Yes, you’re probably right, but before the accident, it looked perfect. It was 100% concentric and had even spacing between the coils, so I was happy that, for once, it looked just right. It would be wonderful if it could be restored. Let’s see what the picture reveals. Stay tuned, and thanks for your engagement

8 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

What causes this to happen, any ideas ?

The problem is that the pins on the cock and the holes on the mainplate are a bad fit. Simply poor quality during manufacturing. Pretty typical for older Vostok movements.

[GuyMontag]

2 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The problem is that the pins on the cock and the holes on the mainplate are a bad fit. Simply poor quality during manufacturing. Pretty typical for older Vostok movements.

I have the same issue with some older Bulova's. They have like 3 huge steady pins that feels like they need a crowbar to get them out of the mainplate. Loosening the bridge screw doesn't always work as the steady pins are so dang long that the screw needs to be totally removed to get all of the steady pins out of the plate.

[Neverenoughwatches]

7 hours ago, VWatchie said:

I’ll take a picture tomorrow as soon as I get a chance.

Yes, you’re probably right, but before the accident, it looked perfect. It was 100% concentric and had even spacing between the coils, so I was happy that, for once, it looked just right. It would be wonderful if it could be restored. Let’s see what the picture reveals. Stay tuned, and thanks for your engagement

The problem is that the pins on the cock and the holes on the mainplate are a bad fit. Simply poor quality during manufacturing. Pretty typical for older Vostok movements.

I don't understand how that would launch the balance assembly into the air though.

5 hours ago, GuyMontag said:

I have the same issue with some older Bulova's. They have like 3 huge steady pins that feels like they need a crowbar to get them out of the mainplate. Loosening the bridge screw doesn't always work as the steady pins are so dang long that the screw needs to be totally removed to get all of the steady pins out of the plate.

Old Oris watches are the same.

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, Neverenoughwatches said:

I don't understand how that would launch the balance assembly into the air though.

Well, I can't explain the physics behind it, but imagine the cork being the stuck balance cock and the champagne being me prying on it.

[mikepilk]

It looks like it might just need a slight tweak. The spacing is greater at the top than bottom.

Could the stud have twisted slightly?

I would start by pushing in just above the pins, or out just below them, until the spacing looks even.

It looks like there could be a slight kink in the terminal curve just below the pins.

 

[Neverenoughwatches]

37 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Well, I can't explain the physics behind it, but imagine the cork being the stuck balance cock and the champagne being me prying on it.

I thought it would need tension, so possibly the lateral forces between the pins and the sudden release of you prising upwards. Its caused ME a problem now though.....I can't stop watching the popping cork video

[VWatchie]

49 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

It looks like it might just need a slight tweak.

That sounds promising, thanks! I'll try your suggestion because I believe it's spot on. But before I start, I'll take a picture of the underside as well, just to make sure you get the full picture of the situation. At the moment, I'm fully booked, but I'll try to get back later today.

Oh, now my wife is calling: "Why don’t I hear the vacuum cleaner!?" 

[mikepilk]

30 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Oh, now my wife is calling: "Why don’t I hear the vacuum cleaner!?" 

Because you aren't playing the recording of a vacuum you should have made so that you can work in peace 

I have been fiddling with watches for about 10 years and it's only the last year or so that I've felt confident in tweaking hairsprings (excluding overcoils which still give me the chills). 

[rehajm]

12 hours ago, VWatchie said:

The problem is that the pins on the cock and the holes on the mainplate are a bad fit. Simply poor quality during manufacturing. Pretty typical for older Vostok movements.

..this has happened to me on occasion when the pins are tight. The smallest dot of grease usually solves it. (Yes I’m aware it’s not supposed to be there …)

[RichardHarris123]

8 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

Because you aren't playing the recording of a vacuum you should have made so that you can work in peace 

Good idea, buy a robotic one to do the actual work. 

[mikepilk]

5 minutes ago, rehajm said:

..this has happened to me on occasion when the pins are tight. The smallest dot of grease usually solves it. (Yes I’m aware it’s not supposed to be there …)

I use a smoothing broach lightly in the holes

[JohnL]

28 minutes ago, mikepilk said:

I use a smoothing broach lightly in the holes

Good to know. I asked in a previous topic whether the balance was different on a Vostok 2416 to a 2409 because of precisely this problem. The pins just didn't seem to fit when putting one from a 2409 on a 2416. If memory serves I've also broken a balance pivot when the pins were a little tight and that final: go in you ^%$£ard was just as the balance shaft shifted. It may not have been a Vostok though. 

[nickelsilver]

MIke's on the right track. For errors in the round, you make the correction at 90 degrees to the maximum error. You can see the regulator curve is pretty "on", but I would still push a little at the stud where the green arrow is. This will bring the hairspring a bit closer to center, but will also worsen the fact that the regulator curve is already favoring the inside of its perfect radius on the other side of the regulator pins. You could reform it, but you would reintroduce the out of round condition.

 

For me the quickest and best fix would be to twist at the blue arrow, which happens to be at one of the bends that transition from regulator curve to hairspring body, and happens to be at 90 degrees to the max error.

 

 

Edited March 29 by nickelsilver

[VWatchie]

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

Because you aren't playing the recording of a vacuum you should have made so that you can work in peace 

Brilliant idea, but I would fear for my life if she caught me! 

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I have been fiddling with watches for about 10 years and it's only the last year or so that I've felt confident in tweaking hairsprings (excluding overcoils which still give me the chills).

Comforting to hear that I’m not alone. In the very beginning, I remember receiving many warnings about how incredibly delicate the hairspring is, and since I’m easily startled, that fear has probably never truly gone away. The only way forward, of course, is to adjust and observe repeatedly until one starts feeling somewhat confident.

2 hours ago, rehajm said:

The smallest dot of grease usually solves it.

I can’t see how it could have any negative effects whatsoever. I’ll give your tip a try—thanks!

2 hours ago, RichardHarris123 said:

Good idea, buy a robotic one to do the actual work.

I’ve suggested it many times, but she probably finds it more enjoyable to boss me around. Women are truly mysterious creatures.

2 hours ago, mikepilk said:

I use a smoothing broach lightly in the holes

A more permanent but irreversible solution if one goes too hard—but an excellent tip. Thanks! 

1 hour ago, JohnL said:

The pins just didn't seem to fit when putting one from a 2409 on a 2416.

As I remember it—but I could be wrong—they should be interchangeable. It’s also possible that manufacturing methods and tools have varied over the decades. The 24xx movements have been produced since 1970, and Vostok is not quite in the same league as Rolex (but much more affordable if one is willing to settle for something less than the very best).

1 hour ago, nickelsilver said:

For me the quickest and best fix would be to twist at the blue arrow, which happens to be at one of the bends that transition from regulator curve to hairspring body, and happens to be at 90 degrees to the max error.

I’ll try doing exactly that since it doesn’t affect the terminal curve! Many thanks! 

This is what the hairspring looks like from underneath. I don’t think it affects your assessments, but I’m showing it just in case.

I'll get back with more pictures as soon as I've had a chance to manipulate the spring.

[mikepilk]

16 minutes ago, VWatchie said:

Comforting to hear that I’m not alone. In the very beginning, I remember receiving many warnings about how incredibly delicate the hairspring is, and since I’m easily startled, that fear has probably never truly gone away.

Modern hairsprings like yours are much more robust than the old blued ones - they distort so easily and too much repeated bending can break them. 

Your spring doesn't look too bad, the terminal curve is a little flat where shown

 

I was very gentle and cautious with hairsprings until I saw this video of Mr Fried - robust to say the least !

 

[JohnL]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

As I remember it—but I could be wrong—they should be interchangeable. It’s also possible that manufacturing methods and tools have varied over the decades. The 24xx movements have been produced since 1970, and Vostok is not quite in the same league as Rolex (but much more affordable if one is willing to settle for something less than the very best).

Yes, they should be, and you replied at the time to the topic saying as much; for which I was very grateful. Another balance from the same model in the family worked, so it was manufacturing issues. 

Edited March 29 by JohnL
typo

[nevenbekriev]

@VWatchie, I was more concern if the spring has deformation in flat. This little out of center pictures show nothing to worry as it is easy to correct. But such flight of the balance with the cock may have stretched the spring as to make it look as a funnel. Do You have something similar? Does the movement work normally now? Does the spring look flat and parallel to the cock/balance when balance with the cock is in the movement?

[VWatchie]

This is how the hairspring looks now after I manipulated it according to @nickelsilver's instructions. It once again looks just like it did before the accident. A huge thank you to all of you, but a special and heartfelt thanks to nickelsilver for the illustration and the accompanying pedagogical explanation, which—just like always—is world-class!

The first thing I attempted was to adjust the slight indentation in the terminal curve just below the curb pins. I probably didn’t succeed completely, but I also didn’t want to tamper with it unnecessarily, as every adjustment carries a certain risk.

Here are the tools I used. I held the spring in place with the tweezers right at the bend (at the blue arrow in nickelsilver's illustration) and then gently stroked the part of the spring that lies between the terminal curve and the main body of the hairspring, using the oiler, repeatedly in the direction of the arrow. I did this in stages, checking the shape of the spring after each step. I took my time and continuously monitored my breathing, and kept my shoulders relaxed. After eight years of working on watches, I know that when things go wrong, it’s usually because you feel stressed and tense.

I also had to manipulate the hairspring slightly at the stud in the direction of the green arrow (in nickelsilver's illustration), as the spring was making slight contact with the curb pin. However, I made this adjustment as close to the stud as possible.

On 3/29/2025 at 9:25 PM, nevenbekriev said:

But such flight of the balance with the cock may have stretched the spring as to make it look as a funnel.

Fortunately, things were not as bad as I initially feared. In my first post, I mentioned that the balance cock jumped at least ten centimeters into the air. In reality, it was probably no more than two or three centimeters—but it felt like a meter. And like my heart stopped.

What likely saved the situation was that the only part mounted on the main plate at the time was the balance cock—no other components. In other words, there were no other parts for the balance wheel to get caught on. Before I begin assembling a movement, I always install the balance assembly, chatons, and cap jewels first to check the free movement of the balance wheel. It was right after doing this, when I was about to remove the balance cock, that the accident happened.

I must say, I feel very encouraged and inspired after this “little” operation, so once again, a huge thank you! 

Edited April 2 by VWatchie