Seiko 6R15 Service Walk-Through

[jdm]

Great walkthrough JDM, but I tend to steer clear of IPA (particularly on the balance & pallet) and use lighter fluid instead.

 

Thanks. You have a point there. Let me say better then: do not place parts with shellac, like pallet fork or hairsping "glued" to end stud into isopropylic alcohol.

Edited January 31, 2016 by jdm

[oldhippy]

I do not want to risk dropping or confusing them and do not enjoy handling things without a specific purpose.

 

I think that is fair enough.

[RazaXML]

Hi guys my first post here and I am having a little trouble with my sarb033 so I was hoping someone could lend me some tips..

 I replaced the dial and date wheel which should be a fairly simple job.  However when I reassembled everything the ability to set the time will seize up when tightening the screws that hold down the Date indicator maintaining plate, the Date Wheel, and the date jumper plate.  With the screws loose it will turn and seem to work fine, but not when fully assembled.  I fear I am missing something that may have pinged away when opening it, but looking at a similar technical guide for the 6R15B (mny sarb has a 6R15D movement) I don't see anything that may be missing.

Can anyone think of a good reason the gears will not turn when simply reassembling the date wheel back into place?

Thanks much for any help.

[RazaXML]

i figured it out.  the date wheel i had was just not fitting as well as it could.  i took some 1000 grit sandpaper to the spokes and to the bottom to remove any hint of flashing and it fit much better.  all put back together now and working great.

[Klassiker]

Very much appreciated, this walk-through. It's amazing how much quicker I can work if I don't have to photograph everything! I have removed the balance cap-jewels and settings for cleaning. I'm confident I can put these back OK. There are two other cap jewels held by Diafix springs on the barrel and train-wheel bridge, for the escape wheel and third wheel. These are smaller, and look like a challenge. Before I do something I'll regret, what are your opinions?

a). Leave well alone, no need to tempt fate

or

b) Absolute must, if you are doing a proper job

[watchweasol]

Hi well done jdm  a very comprehensive walk through. Anone working on the same movement would do well to read this before starting. excellent.  As regards the non cleaning of clean parts screws an plastic wheels I can see where you are coming from and respect that opinion, I also see Old Hippy's point of view,  being trained old school and very correct its hard to change. But as you say it works for you with no problems so therefore you do it your way. I have done it both ways and had no problems with either. Thanks again for a good and instructive walk through. 

[jdm]

3 hours ago, Klassiker said:

a). Leave well alone, no need to tempt fate

Leave them alone, just oil the pivot. Get some junk 7S26 to try remove and set and you'll understand why.

Edited December 6, 2019 by jdm

[jdm]

2 hours ago, watchweasol said:

As regards the non cleaning of clean parts screws an plastic wheels I can see where you are coming from and respect that opinion, I also see Old Hippy's point of view,  being trained old school and very correct its hard to change.

Actually OH and I do agree, as he wrote:

Quote

My recommendation about cleaning is that with a movement which is spotless like the one in these pictures, I do not wash all the parts, but only those that have jewels, or are to be lubricated.

Plastic wheels don't have jewels, but if don't like them under the loupe before installing then surely I would clean them 

Edited December 6, 2019 by jdm

[m1ks]

On 1/31/2016 at 10:51 AM, oldhippy said:

I never put the balance wheel or hairspring through the cleaner. Always used Ronsonol lighter fluid never had a problem using it for about 30 years. I did try something called 1 dip I think that's what it was called came in a small jar and it was rubbish never cleaned the hairspring. Naphtha never heard of it I had to look it up to see what it is.

Though I've only ever, prior to getting my cleaning machine, used lighter fluid/naptha I was always under the assumption that one dip was a better alternative. 

I think the modern equivalent is essence of renata.

However. I replace the cock in the main plate and run it through the machine hand cleaning the chatons and cap jewels after which seems to work better for me than the lighter fluid did.

[jdm]

5 hours ago, m1ks said:

Though I've only ever, prior to getting my cleaning machine, used lighter fluid/naptha I was always under the assumption that one dip was a better alternative. I think the modern equivalent is essence of renata. However. I replace the cock in the main plate and run it through the machine hand cleaning the chatons and cap jewels after which seems to work better for me than the lighter fluid did.

As I often mentioned, lighter fluid is not a product for horology. It contains wax, perfumes and other additives. One should use petroleum ether which is similar but refined and pure.

[Klassiker]

11 hours ago, jdm said:

Leave them alone, just oil the pivot. Get some junk 7S26 to try remove and set and you'll understand why.

glad I asked, thanks.

[CaptCalvin]

On 12/6/2019 at 12:29 PM, Klassiker said:

Very much appreciated, this walk-through. It's amazing how much quicker I can work if I don't have to photograph everything! I have removed the balance cap-jewels and settings for cleaning. I'm confident I can put these back OK. There are two other cap jewels held by Diafix springs on the barrel and train-wheel bridge, for the escape wheel and third wheel. These are smaller, and look like a challenge. Before I do something I'll regret, what are your opinions?

a). Leave well alone, no need to tempt fate

or

b) Absolute must, if you are doing a proper job

I would go with b. They're not that hard to do if you have a stereo microscope and manipulated with 2 pairs of tweezers. I've done quite a few. As I have found Seiko movements are especially sensitive to cleanliness and proper lubrication, I think it's in your best interest to be particularly meticulous. Oiling the pivot might not be sufficient either as the bottom of those jewels are recessed and as oil collects at the bottom of the pivot at the shoulder which doesnt touch the jewel, the oil would just sit there and never reach the jewel.

[Klassiker]

I went with b in the end, after getting terrible amplitude which I mentioned in another post. As you say, not too difficult, because you can work one side in first, hold it steady about halfway engaged, the push the opposite side down and across into the slot. Then rotate the whole thing to the centre. I used a x10 lupe. One of the jewel holes was dirty, so well worth the effort.

[jdm]

3 hours ago, Klassiker said:

I went with b in the end, after getting terrible amplitude which I mentioned in another post.

Are you sure that was the issue? I did not saw a final update to the other topic. In my experience a dirty jewel on a relatively slow turning pivot does not cause an 100° amplitude drop.

I believe that suggesting  people here, of which many are beginners, that they must take apart these tiny devices on their 7S / 4R / 6R service, or get a stereo microscope, etc, we are causing much more trouble than good.

Edited December 17, 2019 by jdm

[CaptCalvin]

10 hours ago, jdm said:

Are you sure that was the issue? I did not saw a final update to the other topic. In my experience a dirty jewel on a relatively slow turning pivot does not cause an 100° amplitude drop.

I believe that suggesting  people here, of which many are beginners, that they must take apart these tiny devices on their 7S / 4R / 6R service, or get a stereo microscope, etc, we are causing much more trouble than good.

Amscope distributes decent ones very affordably. Nonetheless he did it with a 10x loupe, so microscope not an absolute necessity, just makes things easier. An escape pivot is the fastest moving pivot in the train. Even the 3rd wheel in my experience usage of thicker oil like 9104 or even a little too much 9010 can cause a 50 degree decrease in amplitude. Depending on the type or amount of contamination it's not inconceivable that dirty jewels can cause a drop of 100 degrees. These movements may have beginner cost, but I would not consider them beginner movements to make run decently. 

[Klassiker]

Hi jdm. No, I'm not sure that the dirty jewel was the only issue. I also re-cleaned pallet fork, escape wheel, the hairspring and balance assembly, and the shock absorber assemblies once again. The dirt was the only problem I identified, but maybe I fixed something else simply be re-cleaning and oiling.

I take your point about not doing things which aren't necessary, especially when the risk of losing or damaging parts is high. In this case I only decided to remove the 3rd wheel and escape wheel cap jewels after I had a problem and couldn't find another cause. It turned out not to be as daunting as I'd feared, and because I found the dirt, I considered it worthwhile.

[jdrichard]

Really good walkthrough. Thanks

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[VWatchie]

The walk-through mentions the need for a "Seiko cross-head driver". My simple question is; would this driver do the job?

[jdm]

1 hour ago, VWatchie said:

The walk-through mentions the need for a "Seiko cross-head driver". My simple question is; would this driver do the job?

Only the 6R15B (as well 7S26A and B ) has a cross head screw, so check that first.

What you linked is the Seiko driver, but also Horotec and Bergeon make one. And a slightly pointed 1.2mm blade works fine.

Edited February 10, 2020 by jdm

[Deggsie]

 
Thanks. You have a point there. Let me say better then: do not place parts with shellac, like pallet fork or hairsping "glued" to end stud into isopropylic alcohol.

Hello. Somewhere on here, a year or so ago, I reported an experiment where I purposely placed a scrap pallet fork into ipa (that’s not Indian pale ale[emoji16]) For several hours between me leaving home in the morning for work and then returning midday it was left soaking. I inspected it at midday (5 hours later) and probed the shellac with a sharpened oiler. There was no sign of softening nor where the pallets moveable. I put the pallet fork back into the ipa, and returned to work. After returning from work in the evening (some 10 hours after initial immersion) I probed the shellac again. This time it was sponge like and degraded. The pallets moved when pressed.

A watch maker whom was giving me lessons at the time always used ipa for final rinse with the ultrasonic action as well. He bought ipa in bulk to save money. He was horrified that I implied its use was frowned upon by some some watchmakers. In 30+ years of running a watch repair business he claimed he had not ever had an issue with ipa softening shellac. So, I think as long as you don’t submerse the parts for hours, then ipa is fine to use for a quick final rinse, and will not effect the shellac.... imho. Personally, I use it for only 3 minutes then put the parts straight onto absorbent paper to dry.
Regards


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[Deggsie]

Hi JDM, thank you for sharing your most uninteresting walkthroughs. I am envious of your skill to produce such professionally written documents but moreover your skill in working with seiko.

No offence, but personally I don’t like seiko, maybe because they are not old enough. However, I do have an inherited seiko waiting to be repaired, so who knows I might just come to love it when (or if) I get it running again [emoji6]

Regards Deggsie


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[jdm]

11 hours ago, Deggsie said:

I am envious of your skill to produce such professionally written documents but moreover your skill in working with seiko.

Thank you, honestly I only have average skills and knowledge, even "more average" back then when I wrote this. 

11 hours ago, Deggsie said:

No offence, but personally I don’t like seiko, maybe because they are not old enough. 

Here's my take: I try not to be too particular about what i work on. For me the value is in the work one dos, not in the tools or the piece itself. I think that any brand or piece is what it is for good reasons, and all deserve the same focus and attention, especially when belong to somebody else. Since I was able to choose what to learn on, I took current Seiko simply because is very available, greatly popular,  and has a cost/quality ratio which is difficult to beat. There is nothing different in working on it as compared to another maker. 

[Deggsie]

I like your blend of philosophical and economical response JDM. It makes sense what you say, but .....seiko still seem to lack the charisma other old Swiss lever wrist watches boast. This discussion is similar the old argument about what constitutes a fine red wine. I think the best answer I read was “whichever tastes best to taster”.

Perhaps I will grow to enjoy seiko when I repair and wear the one I inherited recently.

Kind regards, Deggsie


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[FALLINGTITAN]

How many other watches have lifetime barrels?  And is it 100 yr?

[FALLINGTITAN]

"Note: I recommend to not disassemble the barrel on the 6R15 movement, because a special material (SPRON 510) mainspring is used link, for which one would not find an exact replacement, and the barrel is sealed and lubricated for life. If there is any issue with the mainspring, replace the barrel complete."

 

any other watches have this special barrel? lasts how long 100 years?