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Posted (edited)

PS I just realized the toolmakers block they're sitting on (its 4x4x4) is one of a pair I made and they were sent out for a commercial case hardening and then I ground them.   They are suppose to be 50 thou deep.  All the tapped holes were plugged to avoid hardening the threads. 

Edited by measuretwice
Posted

Klassiker,

The questions you asked are great questions and questions that should be asked.

First off, annealing can be a long precision process. Most watchmakers have come up with various home grown methods over many years. There are some videos by Steffen Pahlow where he anneals material with an alcohol lamp. It has been awhile since I have watched  it but I believe he encased the part with some brass tubing and heated everything with the lamp. I have a computer controlled kiln that can reduce temperature in controlled increments over time. The kiln was expensive and is probably not on the wish list of most watchmakers. The main concept is to reduce the temperature slowly, in steps, over a long time period.  Most watchmakers do not have hardness testing equipment but you will certainly know if the material is "soft" when you machine it.

Drill rod is a generic term for small diameter shaft material that has been ground on a centerless  grinder. It is generally offered in Inch, letter and number diameters in relitavely  short (3 foot)  lengths. It is usually offered in oil hardening (O1,O2), water hardening (W1,W2), and air hardening (A1,A2) steels. The O,W and A designators refer to the chemical composition of the steels. It also implies that the steel is to be hardened by quenching in oil, water or air. Since air quenching has the least amount of temperature differential, it produces the least amount of distoration and cracking in the quenching process. It is used a lot in high precision applications such as stamping dies. Water hardening tool steels are far less expensive then the oil and air hardening steels and are used in lower precision applications such as knives and scissors. For some reason the W composition of drill rod has become the favorite for watch staffs. 

david

Posted
On 11/20/2019 at 6:07 PM, measuretwice said:

I probably wouldn't case harden a part like that, easier to grab a piece of tool steel, heat and quench. 

Ok, let's make another example. Let's say I want collets like the below to cut holes in straps. 
https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/hole-cutter-rotating-6-punches

I suppose they should be hardened just like a notch cutter: https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/notch-cutter-pliers-cousins-swiss-style

In my EU country only structural, stainless and leaded steels are available retail. I can still buy on Ebay of course, most sellers are from the UK but is not like they carry any US type like O W and such letters. There is no heat treatment company that does retail work. So far I've found that turning leaded stock on my small lathe produces acceptable results, not so much for structural, and I'm not even trying stainless at this time. These are my constrains, and of course a reasonable budget. How to proceed?

Posted (edited)

Punches like that should not be from mild steel/case hardened,  it pretty much has to be tool steel, through hardened and tempered.  Its super easy to do, propane torch and a can of old oil. 

You're going to have to figure where in your market to obtain materials.  Google what your equivalent is of O1 tool steel is in your market then google for who sells it.  Its so common, there has to be some service centre (what places that sell metal are called) selling it - either bricks and mortar or online.   Here (and in the US and I believe overseas as well) we have Metal Supermarkets which was started by friend of mine, Bill Mair.  There are numerous mail order equivalents and lots of small independent service centres.  Anyway, in a place like that, everyone of them will have O1 drill rod (silver steel in the UK) or its equivalent in a little rack by the cashier.  

Edited by measuretwice
Posted
1 hour ago, measuretwice said:

You're going to have to figure where in your market to obtain materials.  Google what your equivalent is of O1 tool steel is in your market then google for who sells it. Its so common, there has to be some service centre (what places that sell metal are called) selling it - either bricks and mortar or online.   Here (and in the US and I believe overseas as well) we have Metal Supermarkets which was started by friend of mine, Bill Mair.  There are numerous mail order equivalents and lots of small independent service centres.  Anyway, in a place like that, everyone of them will have O1 drill rod (silver steel in the UK) or its equivalent in a little rack by the cashier.  

Silver steel should be:
US 1021 = EU C16, C22 =  UK 070M30, 080A15, EN3B (mistakenly I wrote mild bright above)

I understand that in the US there have local and postal materials shops (plus an infinity of other goods and service), but it is not so in Continental Europe, as mentioned the best sellers are in the UK only, otherwise your choices are limited to what I mentioned above, plus some copper, brass and few more.

Posted (edited)

where are you located?  Wouldn't ordering from the UK work?

Sorry I can't help more help; I'm not there and have not bought metal in Europe.  However I can't believe its that hard to find.  Anywhere there is any manufacturing there's a supply chain that includes MRO quantity metals.  O1 drill rod is so common you can get here at any place that sells machinist tools

Here's a couple of MRO style service centres from a quick search

https://www.metals4u.co.uk/

https://www.metalsupermarkets.co.uk/

Edited by measuretwice
Posted
14 minutes ago, measuretwice said:

Wouldn't ordering from the UK work?

 

I get most of my parts from the UK, and same was for auto parts before, plus other things.

I understand that certain things are difficult to believe for Americans that aren't familiar with other countries. For obvious reasons in certain ways the UK is the one that is most similar, yet is very different believe me. In my country who sells a something won't sell another, there is very little interest in machining, model building, etc.  There are no machining college courses, or the like. The watch repairers association doesn't even have a website. Modifying vehicles in any way is illegal, no exceptions. Petrol fuel can be easily USD 7.50 an US gallon. And I'm talking a country that is still 2nd in the EU industrial production, you can imagine about the others.

Posted (edited)

Sounds frustrating, but I know there are other aspects that make up for it.   I get its very different, been there several times, have one kid living there now and the other 3 all have lived there as well so I've some exposure, I'just never bought metal there.  Wife and kids have been everywhere there, most often I'm left at home at the salt mine to pay for it all, they take me along occasionally.  Will be back in the spring for the baby's graduation.  As a tourist, that probably gives lots of visibility of the positives but not so much so on the day to day negatives.

Still, there is manufacturing, so there must be an MRO metals supply chain. 

PS, You're technically correct, Canadians are Americans "(as in North American) however in the common vernacular here "American" means someone from the USA.   I'm from and am in Toronto

 

Edited by measuretwice
Posted

Both MSC and McMaster Carr have an international sales base. There should be a way to purchase material from them almost anywhere in the world. 

I was not aware that Kasenit hardening power was no longer available. I checked the internet and numerous other suppliers offer a similar product that should be available from MSC or McMaster Carr. These companies also supply drill rod. 

One case hardening technique I used in the past was to put the part and Kasenit powder into a crucible and heat everything together. The Kasenit would melt into a cherry red liquid along with the part. I then quenched the part in water. Experiment and see what happens.

david

Posted
40 minutes ago, david said:

Both MSC and McMaster Carr have an international sales base. There should be a way to purchase material from them almost anywhere in the world. 

David, just to make it more clear, it is that not that one can't buy materials in Europe, or that they are not made here. Of course one can buy from the Internet if willing to pay all the extra costs associated with that and are OK with the absurdity of importing what is also locally made - but not available in retail. 

My country has large steel processing factories. It produces special steels and alloys, sophisticated machinery, ships, trains, airplane parts and very fast cars and bikes. But all this is exclusively for industrial or commercial use. There are no sellers of machining tools or materials that cater to individuals or online, only few individuals sell on Ebay, but they have very limited inventory. And the reason, as I said before, is that model engineering or home machining does not exist as an hobby here in continental Europe, and If ever did that ended decades ago. If someone is trained or has the passion will possibly get a job in that sector, not even so well paid, will come back home tired, and that's it.  

Few years ago I went to a local Makers fair, you should probably know about this tendency. All what was there were drones, 3D printers, and Arduino electronics, almost all made in China save for some from northern Europe. Nobody showed metal work, and I understand that, as it's something that makes noise, dirt, requires a large dedicated space, electrical, etc. But most people in Europe, even wealthy ones, live in cities and apartments, not houses with large garages or sheds. Young men, even the technically inclined ones have different interests than maching/ fabricating / modifyng / fixing things, especially when they learn that they won't get much money or appreciation from it. 

Posted

I have to agree with jdm (btw. what is your country?), getting a ton of steel is no problem here, but getting a 1 meter rod is. At least the supplyer will charge his minimum fee which is equivalent to several 3-m rods.

However "silver steel" is available at many online model engineering shops.

Frank

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