Ebay flooded with Carriage clocks from China

[tictok]

Hi,

I wonder if Elliot actually produced any of the clocks similar to the original in this thread ...some oval, some bamboo designs, etc. - or whether they are ALL fake?

I see they are being offered by auction houses as fine as Bonhams in London.

If so, are there any features which distinguish them? I can' t find anything on the net aber the 20C. developments of Elliott in this respect.

If Chinese, are they really doomed?

I think I've fallen foul to an Ebayer.

Thanks,

MP

 

[wls1971]

Regardless of auction house they turn up with such regularity, beginning about ten years ago, I see at least 5 or 6 a week going through the auction houses, I cant understand why anyone would entertain them, they are of such poor quality anyone who has handled even a very basic antique cylinder French  carriage clock would understand the quality the French where achieving in their production of such clocks and the Chinese clocks come no where near.

English carriage clocks where produced in small numbers and where only for the wealthy they tend to be of the fusee variety and are very large and heavy compared to French clocks, most English jewellers in the 19th century where buying french clocks and adding their own name as retailer, the clock would still have been marked as of French origin we would not have been able to match the French for the price and scale of production.

This link is a English carriage clock:

https://www.bada.org/object/james-mccabe-no-3506-fine-brass-repeating-carriage-clock-circa-1855

Later English carriage clocks where produced in the style of French clocks most of these you will see are fitted with Swiss or French escapements, these where popular from the 1950's onwards and by the late 1980's it was all over for English clock production on any meaningful scale.

The only genuine Elliott carriage clocks in a french style are from the 1980's when they took over a company called Thwaites and Reed and rebadged their carriage clock production as Elliott.

As a rule of thumb if the Dial has "Elliott and Sons-London" on the dial its fake.

P.S

If you do receive your Ebay purchase post some pics or a link and lets see what you have bought.

Edited May 26, 2020 by wls1971

[tictok]

Many thanks for your fast response.

The clock is apparently en route. It was hard to tell from the photos - but after spending a lot of time searching Google, I'm pretty sure it's one of the typical models floating around in auctions.

The dial is marked Elliott & Son (not Sons).

Sure, I'll take photos when I receive it. The seller is in GB.

All best!

MP

 

 

 

 

[tictok]

here are a couple of the Ebay pics

[tictok]

Apparently cleaned, and described as a good quality movement.

[oldhippy]

Here is another for the grotesque museumIt is not French its Chinese. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Miniature-French-Gilded-Bronze-8-Day-Carriage-Clock/124200926311?hash=item1ceaf3bc67:g:dlgAAOSwjZZezUkx

 

I have had the privilege of restoring a James McCabe carriage clock with silver dial and a very large platform strike repeater in a Bronze case with its original wooden and Bronze cornered carrying case that was back in the early 80’s at which point I valued it at 10,000.  

 

 

[wls1971]

12 hours ago, tictok said:

here are a couple of the Ebay pics

I'm afraid its a lemon and is of Chinese origin Elliott did not start production of platform escapement mantle clocks until the 1920's and used very good quality platforms of french origin and then later very good platforms by Rotherham's eventually switching in the 1950's to L'epee escapements, you could always try and send the clock back stating its not as listed because I can tell you with certainty its not by Elliott.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bamboo-style-cased-Brass-Miniature-Elliott-Carriage-clock-/293588992546?hash=item445b448222%3Ag%3At8oAAOSwnEFeyBpR&nma=true&si=QZifpjPyF4kvM%2BLAIpv2f0O9FwQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

As a side note I have bought from the seller you purchased from, a Gillett and Johnston clock last year, he's a retired clock repairer and jeweller so should know better.

[tictok]

Interesting! A guy called Ivan, based in Nottinghamshire?

[wls1971]

33 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

I have had the privilege of restoring a James McCabe carriage clock with silver dial and a very large platform strike repeater in a Bronze case with its original wooden and Bronze cornered carrying case that was back in the early 80’s at which point I valued it at 10,000

I see them in auctions maybe one or two a year they fetch between 15-20,000 so should imagine they retail at £30,000 plus, very nice if I win the lottery, the only top quality English platform escapement I have is by Brockbank and Atkins which is huge in comparison to a french platform.

https://www.horloger.net/purchase-sales/marine-scientific-clocks-instruments/28-brockbank-atkins/

The one in the link above clock numbered 12616 is exactly the same as the one I have but mine is number 12617 I have it on the wall in my bedroom.

[wls1971]

3 minutes ago, tictok said:

Interesting! A guy called Ivan, based in Nottinghamshire?

Yes that's the guy, I went to collect the clock from him, he also still sells a few clocks through a antique centre near where he lives.

[tictok]

I just wrote to him explaining the situation. You obviously saw the Ebay posting for the clock since you recognise the seller. It obviously a case of false description, the name in addition to listing the movement as of "good quality".

In my e.mail exchange with him following purchase he estimated the clock as being 1950's and the movement French or Swiss, with an explanation as to why.

I have written to say I consider the deal invalid - as I'm sure E.Bay will too, considering the listing vs. the product.

Am curious to see the response - and I'll let you know.

I much appreciate your help and advice. I have bought several carriage clocks from GB via E.Bay and have had wonderful dealings to date. One, a Brunelot with chimes, was knocked out in freight and the seller repaired it and sent it back - in perfect condition. The others have been Couillait movements (one with alarm) in nice condition, late-19, early-20 C. 

All best for now!

Moore

 

 

[Chemy]

A vintage brass cased miniature carriage clock having porcelain panels to the sides decorated wit

 

 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/east-bristol-auctions/catalogue-id-sreas10398/lot-6126c898-7b2a-464a-947e-abc800e4f0e7?utm_source=auction-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=auction-alert&utm_content=lot-image-link

 

 

 

Отправлено с моего SpacePhone через Tapatalk

 

 

 

[wls1971]

3 hours ago, Chemy said:

A vintage brass cased miniature carriage clock having porcelain panels to the sides decorated wit

 

 

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/east-bristol-auctions/catalogue-id-sreas10398/lot-6126c898-7b2a-464a-947e-abc800e4f0e7?utm_source=auction-alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=auction-alert&utm_content=lot-image-link

 

 

 

Отправлено с моего SpacePhone через Tapatalk

 

 

 

This is another typical Chinese fake dead give aways are the very poor porcelain panels just blobs of colour to give the impression of flowers no quality to the painting at all, very poor finish to the screws on the movement, poor ratchet wheel with brass click there are other pointers that indicate non french origin the way the back door is constructed is not typical of miniature french carriage clocks, I do notice though that the auction listing only describes it as vintage but it's origin can only be China, I have two miniature English carriage clock's from the 70's and there construction is far superior to this

Compare that to a genuine french miniature movement,

The quality of screws is very apparent all nicely polished and blued there is a delicacy to the construction of the parts that the Chinese have never matched.

[oldhippy]

Check this before you decide to buy if you don't know much about Carriage Clocks.

https://www.horologica.co.uk/beware/ChineseCC.html

[tictok]

What's the verdict on this model - I have an identicle one. Sorry I don't know how to place photos from Google on here.

 The ad.is on Google;

870 / LA124321

Cheers!

Moore

[oldhippy]

Its not very old. I'll just point two reasons why its a fake. There are more. The click spring (see red circle) and the plate for adjusting the depth of the  contrite wheel give it away. Green arrow.

[tictok]

But is it a Chinese copy?
 

 

 

 

What's the verdict on this model - I have an identicle one. Sorry I don't know how to place photos from Google on here.

 The ad.is on Google;

870 / LA124321

Cheers!

Moore

[oldhippy]

Sorry yes. it is better then some.

[oldhippy]

At least the seller admits he has a piece of junk.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Carriage-Clock-Chinese-Styled-and-Enamel-Face/324182966038?hash=item4b7acf7f16:g:hi4AAOSwnpZe0oBf

[wls1971]

5 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

At least the seller admits he has a piece of junk.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Carriage-Clock-Chinese-Styled-and-Enamel-Face/324182966038?hash=item4b7acf7f16:g:hi4AAOSwnpZe0oBf

Sounds like his missus thinks its a bigger piece of junk than he does, will be interesting to see what this fetches, I think some fool will pay over a £100.00 for it.

[oldhippy]

What about this. This was never made in France. It has one of the poorest platforms I have seen for a long time. Don't you think its a collectors item. A good price too.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-MINIATURE-ELLIOTT-SON-FRENCH-BRASS-PORCELAIN-PANEL-CARRIAGE-CLOCK-WORKING/274382159294?hash=item3fe2737dbe:g:P1kAAOSwYw1dRDKv

 

Here is another ebay is full of them this evening. You can tell I have time on my hands. I'm fed up. Don't forget to buy this piece of crap. I dread to think what the Barometer will tell. Chinese weather in 

Wuhan telling us which way the wind is blowing. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/C1910-Antique-Miniature-Double-Porcelain-Brass-Carriage-Clock-Barometer/324182845271?hash=item4b7acda757:g:p~QAAOSwkNddi0~N

[tictok]

Just had confirmation; that last piece I listed sold for 895 lsd!

 

 

What's the verdict on this model - I have an identicle one. Sorry I don't know how to place photos from Google on here.

 The ad.is on Google;

870 / LA124321

Cheers!

Moore

[wls1971]

£895.00 that's why the trade in them thrives, pay £50,00 to £100.00 at auction pass it off as a genuine article and be £700,00 better off big mark ups are just too tempting to pass up by some dealers, but if they where ever taken to court is it worth the loss of reputation. 

[oldhippy]

1 hour ago, tictok said:

Just had confirmation; that last piece I listed sold for 895 lsd!

 

 

What's the verdict on this model - I have an identicle one. Sorry I don't know how to place photos from Google on here.

 The ad.is on Google;

870 / LA124321

Cheers!

Moore

Its a fake. 

[tictok]

But does this mean that a clock like this will not function correctly, or for long? The sub-min I have has kept perfect time for the six months I've owned it. It has a weighty, solid feel, and doesn't (at least outwardly) look cheap or inferior.