Kluber P-125 vs. Homemade

[DouglasSkinner]

Hi Everybody!  Henry Fried has in one of his books a little recipe for making a grease that one can use on the outer wall of the mainspring barrel in an automatic watch.  It supposedly provides lubrication for proper slippage of the mainspring tail.  Has anyone tried this?  What is the proper consistency (Fried is not very specific about this because it was probably so common in his day)?  Also how would such a preparation compare to Kluber P-125 which, here in the US is really expensive?  I won't leave it here.  I"m gonna experiment a bit with this and will let you know what I found.  Just want to see what other's have found out.  Thanks.

[canthus]

Looking at the data sheets, these indicate that the main ingredients are :-

Trizinc bis(0rthophosphate) often called Zinc Phosphate - This is probably used as a corrosion inhibitor.

Zinc Oxide - This is probably the carrier for the oil in this grease which could well be a 'white oil' ala liquid paraffin or synthetic oil.  This is often used in skin creams and for automotive applications where a white grease is required for a 'clean' effect, and can be bought in these forms.

Molybdenum Di-sulphide - This is a 'dry lubricant' which will tend to plate out on the surfaces and works by shearing when a level of load is achieved.

Asphalt - This is possibly being used as a tacky/adhesiveness agent or as an extra thickener.

Technically it sounds bewildering but these ingredients can be readily sourced.

Obviously the proportions and manufacturing processes will define the finished product !!!!! 

Why so expensive ?   Perhaps very small batches = very high manufacturing costs, and a heap of R&D and marketing/branding costs.

These are my personal thoughts and I do not claim to offer professional advice or belittle the product.

Edited October 17, 2018 by canthus

[DouglasSkinner]

Thanks Canthus!  Very interesting information.  Fried used a graphite/watch oil mixture.  I'm gonna try it and will report on it later.

[canthus]

Thanks DS. Graphite works similar to molybdenum in that it shears when critical load is reached.  Moly may not have been around at that time. Graphite is also used when electrical conductivity is required.

[DouglasSkinner]

Thanks again.  Fried does mention Molybdenum Di-sulphide can be used.  He gives the impression that these must be mixed with oil before application.  Based on what you posted about P-125 I assume that is the case with these as well?

[DouglasSkinner]

I wonder if you could us molybdenum disulphide grease such as in the link below:

 https://www.amazon.com/Yamalube-ACC-MOLDM-GS-10-Molybdenum-Disulfide-Grease/dp/B005XA2EQK/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1539821020&sr=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=Molybdenum+Di-sulphide+grease

[JohnR725]

Kluber P-125 Is specified as a breaking grease used on the Mainspring barrel wall of automatic watches. It needs to have some unique properties. It's supposed to hold until the mainspring is almost wound up at which time it slips and acts like a grease. The problem will be is you need a very high pressure grease when it does slip otherwise as the mainspring slips you will get metal filings in your mainspring. Then the wrong lubrication or improperly implying the lubrication you could have premature slipping the mainspring will never hold.

 

[canthus]

As we used to say in the lube industry, its like making a cake.  All the ingredients are available and there are many recipes but its how good it tastes when its all put together !!!    

[DouglasSkinner]

8 hours ago, JohnR725 said:

Kluber P-125 Is specified as a breaking grease used on the Mainspring barrel wall of automatic watches. It needs to have some unique properties. It's supposed to hold until the mainspring is almost wound up at which time it slips and acts like a grease. The problem will be is you need a very high pressure grease when it does slip otherwise as the mainspring slips you will get metal filings in your mainspring. Then the wrong lubrication or improperly implying the lubrication you could have premature slipping the mainspring will never hold.

 

How about the Yamaha molybdenum disulphide grease I linked to?  (see above)

[JohnR725]

There are other breaking greases out there Moebius 8212, 8213 & 8217.. I have a link to the website.

Then  application of p-125? This is really really sticky grease  and if you apply too much it's too sticky. To understand this I have some images attached  you can see just very tiny amounts are used spaced around the barrel. Because if you go excessive it doesn't want to slip  almost at all.

There are Mysteries to breaking grease? If you look at Henry's formula basically it's graphite or molybdenum disulphide Mixed into a heavy watch oil. If you look at the description on the website link below for the lubricants I mention above each one has specific properties for aluminum barrel or brass barrel or the other one that sees you more generic but unique properties. Then you also noticed that  they have other greases that are lubricating not breaking with molybdenum disulphide

Then  don't remember which lubrication was used or whether we used too much.. Some of these if you use too much there actually too slippery.  So too slippery or zero breaking which you would have with the over-the-counter lubricant that's meant to lubricate not break would cause the following?  It's the weird end of the automatic spring that holds it in place  when the rest of the spring winds up the end part pulls away the spring slips This is where the molybdenum disulphide Comes in its the high-pressure lubricants. Then after releasing a little power it's supposed to stop but if you have a really nice lubricant in their it's not stopping you lose a whole lot of power.

So the tube is cheap  try an experiment. The worst case I can see is it's going to slip too much you'll probably need an auto winder as it probably won't have enough power to go overnight.

 

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/greases

[DouglasSkinner]

JohnR725, that was exactly what I was looking for.  I don't have an autowinder yet so I usually just wear them.  I since I like to walk I'll wear the watch while walking (as long as it's not too hot outside!) and then see how long it goes after I take it off.  If it goes enough hours to make it over night I figure I'm good.  So, I'll try our suggestion and get the Yamaha grease and see how it works.  Based on your pictures it's probably not sticky enough.  Thanks!

[oli]

JohnR725 would you have a link to the whole document by any chance? It is the Omega technical instruction if I am not mistaken, I have been looking for this one without any luck... 

[JohnR725]

I could give you the link but it will do you no good unless you have a username and a password.. Somewhere in the universe I have friends that let me access the Omega database but? Omega's paranoid every single corner of every page is watermarked with whoever's account accessed and downloaded the data. So if you notice I remove  anything that resembles identification  from the images. So I do not want to in danger my source  by  releasing watermarked documents. If Omega's paranoid enough about watermarking your documents obviously they don't want them floating around in the universe.. So with the watermarking  at least Omega lets the pages escape the computer. Supposedly Rolex you can only see the data online and it's supposed to be impossible to copy.. Just like Rolex  and their student training manuals there printed in bizarre colors on weird back colors of paper supposedly making it impossible to copy.

Then  what you're looking for is not the normal lubrication guide because it has almost nothing on mainsprings you're looking for this. Working Instruction N° 67 Recycling A Complete Barrel.

[oli]

Thanks John and no problem at all, I completely understand!